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Old 10-02-2009, 04:42 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,531 posts, read 13,773,722 times
Reputation: 1560

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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist
Quote:
We Christians have wisdom because we borrow God's wisdom
Ah, I see that you confuse knowledge with experience.
People who have experience also have the knowledge, which you can't say for people who only have (untested) knowledge and no factual experience.
And if ya ask me wisdom can only grow through hard-gained experience.
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Old 10-02-2009, 04:56 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,531 posts, read 13,773,722 times
Reputation: 1560
Originally Posted by Mike555
Quote:
Christ divides men.
Right, which is why Jesus taught his followers to love others the way they loved themselves, or at least treat others the way they themselves wanted to be treated.
Or do ya believe that Jesus taught his followers to only treat other Christians the way they themselves wanted to be treated?
Which would kinda be funny because while Jesus lived there were no Christians, simply because Jesus considered himself to be a Jew.
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Old 10-02-2009, 06:31 PM
 
17 posts, read 76,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist Ah, I see that you confuse knowledge with experience.
People who have experience also have the knowledge, which you can't say for people who only have (untested) knowledge and no factual experience.
And if ya ask me wisdom can only grow through hard-gained experience.
Kind of like enabling, right? I believe that a lesson is better learned if one experiences it for oneself instead of allowing another to lead one thru it.
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Old 10-02-2009, 07:30 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,531 posts, read 13,773,722 times
Reputation: 1560
Originally Posted by Morgansmom00
Quote:
I believe that a lesson is better learned if one experiences it for oneself instead of allowing another to lead one thru it.
Indeed.
The problem I have with most formal institutions (including organised religion) is that like college they only teach their students what to think instead of how to think, simply because this is much easier. After all manipulating the thought process of an individual has always been easier than manipulating his environment.
I've only needed an education to teach me how to read and do basic math; I'm perfectly able to think for myself and form my own opinions.

It seems to me that many churches (religions) are afraid to enable their congregation to learn from their own experience because that would either mean that they would loose a big chunk of control over their followers or it would make an organised religion obsolete.
These fears perfectly explain why there are so many different Christian denominations because there are as many denominations as there are different opinions (read: interpretations of a religious text).
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Old 10-02-2009, 08:23 PM
 
17 posts, read 76,593 times
Reputation: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by Morgansmom00Indeed.
The problem I have with most formal institutions (including organised religion) is that like college they only teach their students what to think instead of how to think, simply because this is much easier. After all manipulating the thought process of an individual has always been easier than manipulating his environment.
I've only needed an education to teach me how to read and do basic math; I'm perfectly able to think for myself and form my own opinions.

It seems to me that many churches (religions) are afraid to enable their congregation to learn from their own experience because that would either mean that they would loose a big chunk of control over their followers or it would make an organised religion obsolete.
These fears perfectly explain why there are so many different Christian denominations because there are as many denominations as there are different opinions (read: interpretations of a religious text).
You read my mind.
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Old 10-05-2009, 01:09 AM
 
Location: Florida
564 posts, read 590,410 times
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We are saved by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ. Not by works, so no man can boast. Our deeds prove to God we believe in what he says is good for us, "trust in him" and show we truly love him by obeying his word. Jesus learned obedience through the cross he bore. Obedience even to death. God's word is flawless. He will make sure his word is valid. We do not need to be concerned about men changing it. God will tell you of this by his Spirit if a particular book is not from him. The devil will cause doubt and division. Remember satan masquerades as an angel of light. And satan tried to use scripture to decieve Jesus in the temptation of Christ. Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
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Old 10-05-2009, 08:20 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,531 posts, read 13,773,722 times
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Originally Posted by mercy777
Quote:
Not by works, so no man can boast.
And what if you never speak about your works?
Besidez what other people say about your works is irrelevant anywayz, because only how God judges them is relevant.
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Old 03-03-2010, 12:20 PM
 
Location: The space that I'm occupying
3 posts, read 2,590 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morgansmom00 View Post
First of all, I believe that Jesus Christ existed, was the son of God and died on the cross to save man from his sins. However, I recently got into a discussion with someone with whom I disagreed with on whether or not a person with no knowledge of the Bible or Christ could achieve salvation. The scenario was, "could a person who lived on a remote island somewhere, who lived a good, honest life (just as instructed in the words of the Bible), but who had no access to the Word of God still go to heaven?" I believe that the Bible serves as instructions on how we should live our lives according to the Holy Spirit, but I don't think God is so selective that He'd exclude those who just didn't know, but lived the life He intended. I also believe that man is falliable and since the actual Bible has suffered through so many translations and interpretations at the hands of man, I find it difficult to take literal translations. Before you get upset with me, please note again the intro at the top of the page.

Anyway, so in the course of this discussion with what turned out to be with a rather fanatical person who did not share my openmindedness, my salvation was questioned and I was called a heretic b/c my "degree in philosphy and religion taught me to defend man's continual discredit of the Bible".

So, what is it? Does it not matter that I believe in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit? Do I have to believe a literal interpretation of a book that was translated and influenced by the monarchy commissioning the translation and interpreted by different denominations in order to reach salvation? If so, then which version is the right version?

The person who accused me of being a heretic is supposed to be a Christian. She certainly has not convinced me of wanting to break bread with her by casting judgment on me.
I have to agree with you that God is not limited in his abilities. If someone has no way of being able to read the bible, or even hearing about Christ, but lives a life as God would want him/her to live, then I believe that they can go to heaven. It's not his/her fault that the Christianity isn't in the place he/she is living. God is love and he takes Everything into account when judging someone, and because God is love, wouldn't it be rather foolish to say that He has to have things done exactly by the book when He didn't write the book with his own hands, putting a limit on what can and can't be done? We can all beg for forgiveness for our sins, but we only sin again, and it is through Him that we are saved, so aren't we putting a limit on His grace and all-saving power by being selfish and saying that those who have no way of hearing God's word have absolutely no way of going to heaven simply because we limit God's power.

Another thing that can come into the discussion with this kind of thing is, do children who were aborted go to heaven? Because obviously, they haven't had life outside of their mother's womb and have no idea what's being said, haven't had the ability or chance to learn right from wrong, or to choose heaven or hell for themselves with the short life that they've lived.
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Old 03-03-2010, 12:27 PM
 
Location: The space that I'm occupying
3 posts, read 2,590 times
Reputation: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercy777 View Post
We are saved by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ. Not by works, so no man can boast. Our deeds prove to God we believe in what he says is good for us, "trust in him" and show we truly love him by obeying his word. Jesus learned obedience through the cross he bore. Obedience even to death. God's word is flawless. He will make sure his word is valid. We do not need to be concerned about men changing it. God will tell you of this by his Spirit if a particular book is not from him. The devil will cause doubt and division. Remember satan masquerades as an angel of light. And satan tried to use scripture to decieve Jesus in the temptation of Christ. Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
Hmm.. have you heard of this passage in the Bible?
James 2:14-26 "14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
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Old 03-03-2010, 03:17 PM
 
Location: Florida
564 posts, read 590,410 times
Reputation: 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by mb64282 View Post
say I have something wonderful, I mean it is freaking great, and there is no way you will ever get it or experience it on earth, if I don't tell you, it isn't because I don't love you, if it could change the way you see things for the worse, make you sad jealous etc...it's because it would be selfish and boastful to tell you and there is no cause for that. What would be the point?
So true...A best friend saw a spouse cheating. I won't tell because it will hurt them, I won't tell them because it's none of my business, I won't tell because they will hate me, I won't tell because they won't believe me...etc. I saw someone murdered, I immediately go to the police! Jesus is Truth!
It may not always begin pretty but in the end...God does good to those that love Him.
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