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Old 09-30-2009, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Pawnee Nation
7,525 posts, read 14,540,277 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
My best advice to you is to read your bible and pray everyday to know if you are a Christian and stop listening to sheep and goats in this forum. It will only confuse you
so this means you will stop posting?
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Old 09-30-2009, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,383,615 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
My best advice to you is to read your bible and pray everyday to know if you are a Christian and stop listening to sheep and goats in this forum. It will only confuse you
And if the OP prays and reads the bible everyday and still comes up with the same conclusion, then what?

Is that indicative of sheep or goats?

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Old 09-30-2009, 11:49 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,446,997 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
And if the OP prays and reads the bible everyday and still comes up with the same conclusion, then what?

Is that indicative of sheep or goats?

That is a bit of a loaded question. He asked, if he is a Christian or not. It's indicative that he is or will be a spiritually immature Christian. We are always growing.

There is nothing else he can do....reading and praying will lead him to the right books and the right teachers to learn from.

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 09-30-2009 at 12:04 PM..
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Old 09-30-2009, 12:01 PM
 
20,292 posts, read 15,638,239 times
Reputation: 7403
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morgansmom00 View Post
First of all, I believe that Jesus Christ existed, was the son of God and died on the cross to save man from his sins. However, I recently got into a discussion with someone with whom I disagreed with on whether or not a person with no knowledge of the Bible or Christ could achieve salvation. The scenario was, "could a person who lived on a remote island somewhere, who lived a good, honest life (just as instructed in the words of the Bible), but who had no access to the Word of God still go to heaven?" I believe that the Bible serves as instructions on how we should live our lives according to the Holy Spirit, but I don't think God is so selective that He'd exclude those who just didn't know, but lived the life He intended. I also believe that man is falliable and since the actual Bible has suffered through so many translations and interpretations at the hands of man, I find it difficult to take literal translations. Before you get upset with me, please note again the intro at the top of the page.

Anyway, so in the course of this discussion with what turned out to be with a rather fanatical person who did not share my openmindedness, my salvation was questioned and I was called a heretic b/c my "degree in philosphy and religion taught me to defend man's continual discredit of the Bible".

So, what is it? Does it not matter that I believe in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit? Do I have to believe a literal interpretation of a book that was translated and influenced by the monarchy commissioning the translation and interpreted by different denominations in order to reach salvation? If so, then which version is the right version?

The person who accused me of being a heretic is supposed to be a Christian. She certainly has not convinced me of wanting to break bread with her by casting judgment on me.
The Bible makes it clear that you must make a decision to believe in Christ in order to be saved.

Now, God is omniscient. He knew in eternity past every single person who would ever believe in Jesus Christ. He knew every person who would, once having conceived of the existence of some sort of a supreme being, want more information about what this supreme being might be like. He also knew who would not be interested in knowing anything about Him. Therefore, God sees to it that every person who desires to learn about Him will receive the Gospel so that he can make the decision to believe in Christ or not. If the man on the remote island desires to know God, then God will work circumstances so that that man has the opportunity to hear the Gospel. God will get the Gospel to that person. God spoke the universe into existance. He will get the Gospel to anyone who expresses positive volition at the point of God consciousness.

Except for the translations that purposely distort the Bible from the original languages; the translations, including the King James are pretty accurate. It is true that the King James was translated from the 'textus receptus manuscript,' and there are older and more accurate manuscripts available, but nevertheless, the King James is still pretty good. None of the differences in the translations change any point of doctrine. Most of the changes are minor such as differences in the spelling of a word, or the word order is different. There are some scribal errors-copyist errors. There are a few more serious changes, but still nothing that changes any major point of doctrine. God has preserved His word in writing down throught the centuries for us.

Although we don't have the original manuscripts available today, what we do have are Lectionaries. These are 'booklets' on which a pastor of one of the early churches would copy a passage of scripture from a Latin copy, or some other ancient language and often from the ORIGINAL TEXT. He would then read these passages in his church service. Because of these Lectionaries, we have available to us the scriptures from sources far older than the manuscripts that are available to us today. And there are many thousands of these Lectionaries available to us. Mostly in museums.

Also, because of the sheer number of manuscripts that were propagated laterally as well as linearly down through time, the science of textual criticism allows us to determine the original meaning of what was said in the original manuscripts.

It is therefore not a valid concern that we don't have the original manuscripts. What we do have is indeed the word of God.
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Old 09-30-2009, 12:24 PM
 
17 posts, read 83,894 times
Reputation: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
That is a bit of a loaded question. He asked, if he is a Christian or not. It's indicative that he is a spiritually immature Christian. We are always growing.

There is nothing else he can do....reading and praying will lead him to the right books and the right teachers to learn from.

Actually, I'm a "she" not a "he", not that it should matter and although I don't take offense, I'm not certain that I understand the "spiritually immature" comment. You see, I was raised in the church and spent four years studying religious history. I even attended a fundamental church with my ex husband. This was the point when I began to understand that there were so many interpretations of the Word of God and it angered me that in order to partake in communion I would have to "join" the church and be baptised. I had already been baptised according to my denominations interpretation of the Bible and joining an organization did not seem to be the principle behind communion. I also did not understand how a person could sit in church and be so adament about their beliefs, but go out of town to a strip bar, or partake in any number of other things that the church preached against. So, if not buying into organized religion makes me spiritually immature, then I guess I am. I just don't feel I'm qualified to make the assumption that my way of looking at the Bible is the only way, particularly when the ppl interpreting it are so falliable. Remember the person who called me a heretic, wasn't she judging me? Doesn't the book that she holds so true warn against doing this? I guess maybe she's spiritually immature too.
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Old 09-30-2009, 12:29 PM
 
17 posts, read 83,894 times
Reputation: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The Bible makes it clear that you must make a decision to believe in Christ in order to be saved.

Now, God is omniscient. He knew in eternity past every single person who would ever believe in Jesus Christ. He knew every person who would, once having conceived of the existence of some sort of a supreme being, want more information about what this supreme being might be like. He also knew who would not be interested in knowing anything about Him. Therefore, God sees to it that every person who desires to learn about Him will receive the Gospel so that he can make the decision to believe in Christ or not. If the man on the remote island desires to know God, then God will work circumstances so that that man has the opportunity to hear the Gospel. God will get the Gospel to that person. God spoke the universe into existance. He will get the Gospel to anyone who expresses positive volition at the point of God consciousness.

Except for the translations that purposely distort the Bible from the original languages; the translations, including the King James are pretty accurate. It is true that the King James was translated from the 'textus receptus manuscript,' and there are older and more accurate manuscripts available, but nevertheless, the King James is still pretty good. None of the differences in the translations change any point of doctrine. Most of the changes are minor such as differences in the spelling of a word, or the word order is different. There are some scribal errors-copyist errors. There are a few more serious changes, but still nothing that changes any major point of doctrine. God has preserved His word in writing down throught the centuries for us.

Although we don't have the original manuscripts available today, what we do have are Lectionaries. These are 'booklets' on which a pastor of one of the early churches would copy a passage of scripture from a Latin copy, or some other ancient language and often from the ORIGINAL TEXT. He would then read these passages in his church service. Because of these Lectionaries, we have available to us the scriptures from sources far older than the manuscripts that are available to us today. And there are many thousands of these Lectionaries available to us. Mostly in museums.

Also, because of the sheer number of manuscripts that were propagated laterally as well as linearly down through time, the science of textual criticism allows us to determine the original meaning of what was said in the original manuscripts.

It is therefore not a valid concern that we don't have the original manuscripts. What we do have is indeed the word of God.

Thank you Mike, I found this helpful, but aren't we still relying on a particular denominations interpretation of that word?
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Old 09-30-2009, 12:41 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,446,997 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morgansmom00 View Post
Thank you Mike, I found this helpful, but aren't we still relying on a particular denominations interpretation of that word?
yup that's why you must read and pray everyday. I belong to a certain teaching and when I get to heaven I would not be surprised that 60% of what I believe to be right is actually wrong.

Trust me when you read and pray everyday with the right heart, you will grow in holiness immeasurably.

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 09-30-2009 at 02:00 PM..
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Old 09-30-2009, 12:50 PM
 
4,748 posts, read 6,144,281 times
Reputation: 6711
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morgansmom00 View Post
Thank you Mike, I found this helpful, but aren't we still relying on a particular denominations interpretation of that word?
The Bible translations were not done by "denominations". (Although there are some that were done by unbiblical sects such as the Jehovah's Witnesses....they have their own, that lines up with the "visions" of their "prophets", or was it "prophetess" for JWs?) It is as Mike said, the Bible translations are all pretty much the same, and God can speak to anyone through any of them. (I personally would not use one of those "paraphrased" ones for any kind of serious study. Too much room for human opinion to be inserted.)

You may go to a denominational church, (as I do), but you don't have to rely on strictly that denomination's interpretation to teach you....if you have the Holy Spirit, He will teach you. I don't agree with my denomination or even my pastor on some interpretations of scripture, but we do agree on the important part....salvation by Jesus Christ. I let the other stuff roll off my back, and if I'm wrong and they're right, I trust God to teach me that.
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Old 09-30-2009, 12:52 PM
 
17 posts, read 83,894 times
Reputation: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
yup that's why you must read and pray everyday. I belong to a certain teaching and when I get to heaven I would not be surprised that 60% of what I believe is right is actually wrong.

Trust me when you read and pray everyday with the right heart, you will grow in holiness immeasurably.

Ok, I like this line of thinking I don't think anyone can be 100% certain.
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Old 09-30-2009, 01:07 PM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,548,929 times
Reputation: 4461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
There is nothing else (s)he can do....reading and praying will lead him to the right books and the right teachers to learn from.
Actually, I know people who have earnestly sought the Lord and studied His word for as many years as most of us have been alive, and you would think of them as heretics.

(They're universalists.)
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