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Old 10-01-2009, 01:32 PM
 
29 posts, read 52,321 times
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Check out this online book.

You may want to read the last chapter (XXIII -- Summary of Conclusions) first.

Last edited by tm55; 10-01-2009 at 02:02 PM..
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Old 10-01-2009, 02:06 PM
 
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Why wouldn't they? it is a very popular, enticing doctine and let's face it not many Christians who believe in hell can fully understand or fully accept this doctrine. It is a hard doctrine but who or how many believed is irrelevant, truth is relevant. Even Billy Graham, a man I greatly admire and love made mistakes in his preaching especially when it came to the "alter call" as I myself was a victim in 1995.

The universalist early church fathers such as "Eusebius" didn't think universalist doctrine should be promoted because the threat of hell was a very strong motivator for people to behave morally. This is the misguided thinking of these men and many today who go the opposite who think hell is somehow used by Christians to scare people into the kingdom. True Christians would never agree nor support that method because that doesn't work as it is under false pretense only creating false converts nor is it scriptural, men such as Spurgeon and Wesley understood that it is the gospel-The power of His word that drives men to the foot of the cross and allow the Holy Spirit to change them and only then would people behave morally.

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 10-01-2009 at 02:22 PM..
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Old 10-01-2009, 02:26 PM
 
Location: New England
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post

The universalist early church fathers such as "Eusebius" didn't think universalist doctrine should be promoted because the threat of hell was a very strong motivator for people to behave morally.
This is evidence of what i said on a thread i started further down the forum,the church became the law and the enforcer of it . It could not believe the good news was even greater than they could ever imagined or thought , knowing through there own wicked hearts they would despise the grace of God if such a message of good news could be true, they introduced ET to control the mind of the believer,rather than trust the Holy Spirit to bring conviction to a man's heart and convert him by the love and grace of God.
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Old 10-01-2009, 02:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
This is evidence of what i said on a thread i started further down the forum,the church became the law and the enforcer of it . It could not believe the good news was even greater than they could ever imagined or thought , knowing through there own wicked hearts they would despise the grace of God if such a message of good news could be true, they introduced ET to control the mind of the believer,rather than trust the Holy Spirit to bring conviction to a man's heart and convert him by the love and grace of God.
But you see that may be so but true Christians don't believe that nor see that in scripture. I am not saying, these men were not Christian. I am saying that they were still growing as Spurgeon and co were also.

We owe our ongoing relevation of truth today to all their hard work but true Christians today would understand that you cannot control the mind of a believer or non believer with doctrines. God will save inspite of bad teaching or bad doctrines.

That is not evidence Pcamps but opinion.
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Old 10-01-2009, 04:12 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 8,711,184 times
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
But you see that may be so but true Christians don't believe that nor see that in scripture. I am not saying, these men were not Christian. I am saying that they were still growing as Spurgeon and co were also.

We owe our ongoing relevation of truth today to all their hard work but true Christians today would understand that you cannot control the mind of a believer or non believer with doctrines. God will save inspite of bad teaching or bad doctrines.

That is not evidence Pcamps but opinion.
Modern day Christians dont see it in scripture because they are reading bad translations. The early church fathers spoke Koine Greek as their native language, and despite the controversy of over the meaning of certain words now, no such controversy existed then concerning their meaning. They understood that the bible in their native language clearly taught universal salvation. Even though they could see that was clearly the case, some(such as Eusubius) didn't have enough faith to believe this Good news was enough to sway the hearts and minds of the masses. That is where they were first mistaken, in thinking that it was their duty to make people believe through whatever means necessary. Even though Jesus said that if someone does not receive the good news, not to force it on them, but to knock the dust of your heels and move on. Because according to the apostles and Christ, faith is by divine election and not by the cleaver tactics of men. Some of them didn't understand just like you dont understand, that trying to convince people to believe by using fear tactics does not procure tru faith but only spiritual bondage and torment ...

1 John 4:18 (King James Version)


18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.


Whoever is convinced to believe out of fear is not perfect in love and is not of the true faith of the love of Christ. For it is the love of God that the bible says convinces us to truly believe.

Galatians 5:6 (King James Version)

6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.


1 John 4:19 (King James Version)


19We love him, because he first loved us.

Faith works by love, and we love him because he first loved us ....

Not ... faith works by fear, and we loved him because we first feared his wrath.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 10-01-2009 at 04:27 PM..
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Old 10-01-2009, 04:19 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
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Originally Posted by tm55 View Post
Check out this online book.

You may want to read the last chapter (XXIII -- Summary of Conclusions) first.
In chapter V. Two Kindred Topics; where it is talking about Jesus making a proclamation of the Gospel to the dead in Hades; The reality is that Jesus had gone down into Tartarus as 2 Peter 2:4 tells us, to make a proclamation to the fallen angels who were imprisoned there because of their roll in the events of Gen. 6 regarding the Nephilim. Having been imprisoned since that time, they were unaware of the events going on in the world. Jesus Christ went down into Tartarus to proclaim to them that Satan had been defeated by Christ's strategic victory at the Cross. ( See also 1 Peter 3:18-20 and Jude 6). Jesus did NOT give the Gospel to dead unbelieving people in Torments, which is one of the compartments of Hades.

As far as what any particular church father believed or didn't believe, the early church slipped into apostasy very early in its history. What matters is what the Bible has to say about it. And the word of God is quite clear that only those members of the human race who, while alive on the earth, make a decision to believe in Christ, are saved. Unbelievers will share the lake of fire which was prepared for Satan and his angels. (Matt. 25:41; Rev. 20:10)

The word forever means eternity, through endless ages, eternally.

As we have it in the English translations, 'FOREVER AND EVER ' carries the meaning of an emphatic 'forever.'

In Rev. 20:10 ...they will be tormented day and night ''forever and ever''(to the ages of the ages), is the same phrase used in Hebrews 1:8 for the duration of the throne of God, which is eternal in the sense of unending.

NOTICE THIS: Jesus Christ rules on His throne Forever. Look at these passages concerning the Throne of God. Rev. 22:3; Rev. 4:2; Rev.3:21; Rev.5:1; and I Corinthians 15:24-30.

In Rev. 22:3...but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him; 5) ...and they shall reign forever and ever.

(Both God the Father and the Son are said to be on thrones forever.)


Rev. 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in His throne.

(We see again that both God the Father and God the Son have eternal thrones.)


Therefore, when we see in 1 Corthinians 15:24-28 that ''...then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all,'' It in no way implies that Christ gives up His throne.

Therefore, when the universalists say that the word 'forever', or 'eternal' means 'age only' when applied to the fact of Christ reigning forever on His throne, they are quite simply wrong. Christ reigns through out all eternity without end as does the Father.

The full reality is that when Christ defeats the last enemy, death, then He will deliver up the kingdom to ''God even the Father,'' that ''God--[the triune God--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit] may be all in all.'' The eternal throne is that ''of God and of the Lamb.'' (Revelation 22:1)

And the same word that is used for the duration of God's throne is used for Rev.20:10 where Satan will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Through out all eternity.)
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Old 10-01-2009, 04:34 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 8,711,184 times
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
But you see that may be so but true Christians don't believe that nor see that in scripture. I am not saying, these men were not Christian. I am saying that they were still growing as Spurgeon and co were also.

We owe our ongoing revelation of truth today to all their hard work but true Christians today would understand that you cannot control the mind of a believer or non believer with doctrines. God will save inspite of bad teaching or bad doctrines.

That is not evidence Pcamps but opinion.
Then why are you a protestant, if you believe that the doctrine of eternal torture which was invented in Carthage Rome by pagans turned Christian, and only made orthodox doctrine during the dark ages, was a further revelation of the truth instead of a deterioration of the truth? Why isn't the veneration of Mary then such a new revelation of Gods truth that the early Church did not yet understand, or the veneration of the saints, or so many other roman Catholic doctrines that came about so many hundreds of years after the apostles?

Your logic escapes me fundamentalist, as it ever has.

The reason why most of the Christians and fathers of the early church believed in UR is because that is what the apostles taught them. Then after the church was institutionalized by the Roman state and infiltrated by false believers and pagans the false doctrine of eternal torture was finally perpetrated on the masses kicking of the darkest time in western history so far (the dark ages) and causing the murder of millions of people and the torture of men, women and children during the various inquisitions in order to "save their souls from eternal damnation" ...
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Old 10-01-2009, 05:09 PM
 
Location: New England
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
That is not evidence Pcamps but opinion.
There's the scripture and the nature and character of God.
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Old 10-01-2009, 05:19 PM
 
29 posts, read 52,321 times
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"to the ages of the ages" may mean nothing more than 2 or more future ages (probably the millennium and the new heaven/new earth).

Of course God is on his throne in all ages.

But just as the Bible sometimes refers to God as "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" (even though God is God of a lot more people than that), it's possible that "to the ages of the ages" refers to only two future ages (even though God rules from his throne in all ages).
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Old 10-01-2009, 09:38 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,884 posts, read 26,100,556 times
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Bump to top.

Read the bottom of post # 6 regarding the eternal rulership of Christ on His throne.
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