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Old 10-03-2009, 11:08 PM
 
6,760 posts, read 10,399,712 times
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We are supposedly "born sinners" according to most Christian theology, and because Eve decided to defy God and eat an apple from an "off limits" tree, now we all have to live lives filled with sin, trials, tribulation, despair, and pain.

Is it just me, or is this not one of the most contradictory issues in Christian theology. We always hear that we are going to die and face God one on one and that we will be held responsible for our sins and that there will be no pointing the finger or sharing the blame. Yet we are told that WE ALL ARE SINNERS and that we are born sinners because of what Adam and Eve did in the Garden of Eden. Wow, talk about having to share the blame. If that is the case, why doesn't everyone get a chance without sin? Why did their sin get passed down to all mankind just because 2 people decided to munch on a forbidden apple? It makes no sense. Even the Bible refutes such an idea, yet Christian theology relies on such an idea in order to reason everyone is automatically a sinner because of Adam and Eve. Again, this is refuted in scripture:

Quote:
Deuteronomy 24:16
Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.
So are we suffering because of Adam and Eve, even though the Bible clearly states that is not the case?
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Old 10-03-2009, 11:24 PM
 
21,537 posts, read 16,547,216 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXboomerang View Post
We are supposedly "born sinners" according to most Christian theology, and because Eve decided to defy God and eat an apple from an "off limits" tree, now we all have to live lives filled with sin, trials, tribulation, despair, and pain.

Is it just me, or is this not one of the most contradictory issues in Christian theology. We always hear that we are going to die and face God one on one and that we will be held responsible for our sins and that there will be no pointing the finger or sharing the blame. Yet we are told that WE ALL ARE SINNERS and that we are born sinners because of what Adam and Eve did in the Garden of Eden. Wow, talk about having to share the blame. If that is the case, why doesn't everyone get a chance without sin? Why did their sin get passed down to all mankind just because 2 people decided to munch on a forbidden apple? It makes no sense. Even the Bible refutes such an idea, yet Christian theology relies on such an idea in order to reason everyone is automatically a sinner because of Adam and Eve. Again, this is refuted in scripture:



So are we suffering because of Adam and Eve, even though the Bible clearly states that is not the case?
Go to the thread entitled ''The doctrine of Original Sin is Unscriptual'' and see my reply to the original poster in post #8.
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Old 10-04-2009, 08:25 AM
 
Location: Pawnee Nation
7,525 posts, read 14,857,436 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXboomerang View Post
We are supposedly "born sinners" according to most Christian theology,
Nah that was something created by the medieval church to help control the peasants......if you are going to tax them into submission without them revolting, you have to threaten their souls (and make them believe it).

That being the case, the rest of your question and the thoughts behind them become irrelevant.........
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Old 10-04-2009, 10:40 AM
 
6,760 posts, read 10,399,712 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Go to the thread entitled ''The doctrine of Original Sin is Unscriptual'' and see my reply to the original poster in post #8.
I did and you wrote:

Quote:
The word of God is not required to conform to your expectations of what or how it should say something when addressing an issue. You have been given passages that make the point of original sin and you choose not to believe it. This is the same nonsense as those who deny the Trinity or the rapture because those words aren't found in the Bible. Just like 'Trinity' and 'rapture', so too is the term 'original sin' a technicial theological term to describe a doctrine that the Bible teaches. The truth can only be presented to you. What you do with it is up to you. You are certainly not going to convince anyone who has the sense to acknowledge the reality of original sin that it turns out not to be true after all because the way the Bible states it doesn't suit you. 1Cor. 15:22 ''FOR AS IN ADAM ALL DIE.'' Self explanatory
.

That does not explain why you have to ignore Deuteronomy 24:16 in order to follow the doctrine of original sin. For sin to have fallen on all mankind, it would require that Adams sons be put to death for the sins of their father. An absolute contradiction to the idea of original sin, and it comes VERY early in the bible, long before the NT where all of the verses supposedly supporting the doctrine of original sin come from.

If Adam's offspring are condemned to die because of Adam's sin, Deuteronomy 24:16 is a lie. And trying to reconcile what is written in Deuteronomy with something written in the NT is not reasonable at all considering the book of Deuteronomy was penned several centuries prior to the NT. To say that the words of the NT mean more than what was in Deuteronomy is to say the children of God were running around with bad info for a few centuries.
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Old 10-04-2009, 11:08 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,562,747 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXboomerang View Post
So are we suffering because of Adam and Eve, ....
Yes, as the bible teaches, Death came to all because of Adam's sin.

How does this work in real life?
I was born with blond hair and blue eyes.
I was born with them, they were not due to anything thing I did before I was born.
I get my blond hair and blue eyes from my parents who also were born with them.
I get my two legs and two arms from my parents too, who got them from their parents and so on and so on, back to Adam and Eve.

In the same way, I got a limited lifespan from my parents too.
I will live to be about age 65 or 70, then I will die.
This is because my parents died about that age, and so did their parents.

At best I might make it to age 75, but the point is, is that I was born with a limited lifespan.

This limited lifespan is mine because I inherited it from my forefathers.

You can trace back my parents and their parents, and their parents, and go all the way back to Adam and Eve, and the one thing you will see is that we all pass on to the next generation this "limited" lifespan.

The trick is however, when you get to Adam you find that he was created with an unlimited lifespan.

Adam was created with the ability to live forever, and to pass on this unlimited lifespan to his children, subject to only one small thing.
Obedience to God's law concerning the tree...

Once Adam had sinned, he had a limited lifespan, and that is what he passed on to all mankind.

Death came to all mankind from the results of Adam's sin.

This is why Jesus came and died, so that via his blood, we get an unlimited , everlasting body of flesh and bone.
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Old 10-04-2009, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Bora Bora: Vava'u.
738 posts, read 1,691,032 times
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GOD did more than create us with just a body and a brain. He also created us with special mental and emotional qualities. A key part of our mental and emotional makeup is free will.

To begin with, think about this: Do YOU appreciate having the freedom to choose what YOU will do and say, what YOU will eat and wear, what kind of work YOU will do, and where and how YOU will live? Or would YOU want someone to dictate your every word and action every moment of your life?

No normal person wants his life taken out of his control so completely. Why not? Because of the way God made us. The Bible tells us that God created man in his 'image and likeness,' and one of the faculties God himself has is freedom of choice. (Genesis 1:26; Deuteronomy 7:6) When he created humans, he gave them that same wonderful faculty—the gift of free will. That is one reason why we find it frustrating to be enslaved by oppressive (( unjustly harsh )) rulers.

To go with the gift of free will, God gave us the ability to think, weigh matters, make decisions, and know right from wrong. (Hebrews 5:14) Thus, free will was to be based on intelligent choice. We were not made like mindless robots having no will of their own. Nor were we created to act out of instinct as were the animals. Instead, our marvelous brain was designed to work in harmony with our freedom of choice.

However, did God purpose for free will to be without limits? Imagine a busy city without any traffic laws, where everybody could drive in any direction at any speed. Would you want to drive under those conditions? No, that would be traffic anarchy and would surely result in many accidents.

So too with God's gift of free will. Unlimited freedom would mean anarchy in society. There have to be laws to guide human activities. God's Word says: "Behave like free men, and never use your freedom as an excuse for wickedness." (1 Peter 2:16, JB) God wants free will to be regulated for the common good. He purposed for us to have, not total freedom, but relative freedom, subject to the rule of law.
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Old 10-04-2009, 12:35 PM
 
39,610 posts, read 26,534,261 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RAZZEL View Post
GOD did more than create us with just a body and a brain. He also created us with special mental and emotional qualities. A key part of our mental and emotional makeup is free will.

To begin with, think about this: Do YOU appreciate having the freedom to choose what YOU will do and say, what YOU will eat and wear, what kind of work YOU will do, and where and how YOU will live? Or would YOU want someone to dictate your every word and action every moment of your life?

No normal person wants his life taken out of his control so completely. Why not? Because of the way God made us. The Bible tells us that God created man in his 'image and likeness,' and one of the faculties God himself has is freedom of choice. (Genesis 1:26; Deuteronomy 7:6) When he created humans, he gave them that same wonderful faculty—the gift of free will. That is one reason why we find it frustrating to be enslaved by oppressive (( unjustly harsh )) rulers.

To go with the gift of free will, God gave us the ability to think, weigh matters, make decisions, and know right from wrong. (Hebrews 5:14) Thus, free will was to be based on intelligent choice. We were not made like mindless robots having no will of their own. Nor were we created to act out of instinct as were the animals. Instead, our marvelous brain was designed to work in harmony with our freedom of choice.

However, did God purpose for free will to be without limits? Imagine a busy city without any traffic laws, where everybody could drive in any direction at any speed. Would you want to drive under those conditions? No, that would be traffic anarchy and would surely result in many accidents.

So too with God's gift of free will. Unlimited freedom would mean anarchy in society. There have to be laws to guide human activities. God's Word says: "Behave like free men, and never use your freedom as an excuse for wickedness." (1 Peter 2:16, JB) God wants free will to be regulated for the common good. He purposed for us to have, not total freedom, but relative freedom, subject to the rule of law.
Well said.
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Old 10-04-2009, 03:25 PM
 
21,537 posts, read 16,547,216 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXboomerang View Post
I did and you wrote:

.

That does not explain why you have to ignore Deuteronomy 24:16 in order to follow the doctrine of original sin. For sin to have fallen on all mankind, it would require that Adams sons be put to death for the sins of their father. An absolute contradiction to the idea of original sin, and it comes VERY early in the bible, long before the NT where all of the verses supposedly supporting the doctrine of original sin come from.

If Adam's offspring are condemned to die because of Adam's sin, Deuteronomy 24:16 is a lie. And trying to reconcile what is written in Deuteronomy with something written in the NT is not reasonable at all considering the book of Deuteronomy was penned several centuries prior to the NT. To say that the words of the NT mean more than what was in Deuteronomy is to say the children of God were running around with bad info for a few centuries.
You were looking at post #17. I said go to post #8.

Deuteronomy 24:16 has nothing to do with it. God gave that law to Israel in order to establish a point of justice pertaining to the fair and proper dispensment of punishment.

What God did in charging the entire human race with Adam's sin was to bring the entire human race under the umbrella of grace. That is all explained in post #8 in the other thread.
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Old 10-04-2009, 04:58 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,245,505 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Yes, as the bible teaches, Death came to all because of Adam's sin.

Adam was created with the ability to live forever, and to pass on this unlimited lifespan to his children, subject to only one small thing.
Obedience to God's law concerning the tree...

Once Adam had sinned, he had a limited lifespan, and that is what he passed on to all mankind.

Death came to all mankind from the results of Adam's sin.

This is why Jesus came and died, so that via his blood, we get an unlimited , everlasting body of flesh and bone.
I don't find that concept to be biblical...spiritual death came to us when Adam sinned not physical death. Adam was not born with immortal life but would have to eat of the tree of life to obtain it and he hadn't done that yet.

Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- 23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
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Old 10-04-2009, 05:03 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,794,347 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXboomerang View Post
We are supposedly "born sinners" according to most Christian theology, and because Eve decided to defy God and eat an apple from an "off limits" tree, now we all have to live lives filled with sin, trials, tribulation, despair, and pain.

Is it just me, or is this not one of the most contradictory issues in Christian theology. We always hear that we are going to die and face God one on one and that we will be held responsible for our sins and that there will be no pointing the finger or sharing the blame. Yet we are told that WE ALL ARE SINNERS and that we are born sinners because of what Adam and Eve did in the Garden of Eden. Wow, talk about having to share the blame. If that is the case, why doesn't everyone get a chance without sin? Why did their sin get passed down to all mankind just because 2 people decided to munch on a forbidden apple? It makes no sense. Even the Bible refutes such an idea, yet Christian theology relies on such an idea in order to reason everyone is automatically a sinner because of Adam and Eve. Again, this is refuted in scripture:



So are we suffering because of Adam and Eve, even though the Bible clearly states that is not the case?
What verse shows that it was an apple?

Paul
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