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Old 11-23-2009, 06:35 AM
 
Location: Comunistafornia, and working to get out ASAP!
1,959 posts, read 4,640,979 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
I'm a little confused....I thought you believed in ET?
Huh? me too. Fundamentalist??
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Old 11-23-2009, 08:03 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,425,536 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
The early church fathers were so misguided and lacked true spiritual guidance that even though they had and believed the greatest news of universalism however they didn't teach it nor share it because they didn't trust the power of God's word instead they usurped God's authority for their own and spreaded a false doctrine a "heresy" called "eternal torment" it is irrelevant if they had good intentions or not-remember Satan comes as an angel of light. So as you see either way the early church fathers were practicing heresy.

Always remember to trust God's word only and preach the gospel, the power of His word.
  • The important thing to remember is the original church Father, the apostle Paul, never taught eternal torment and always taught:
  • God will justify all mankind and make all mankind righteous (Romans 5:18,19);
  • God will reconcile all mankind (Col.1:20 hint: beleivers are reconciled now Col.1:21);
  • God will head up all mankind in Christ (believers are headed up now (Eph.1:9-11);
  • God is going to be All in all (1 Cor.15:22-28);
  • God is going to save all mankind 1 Tim.2:4-6) and is all mankind's Saviour (1 Tim.4:10)
  • and Paul told us to charge and teach these things (1 Tim.4:11).
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Old 11-23-2009, 08:24 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,402,926 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
So, christianity stumbled and fell right out the gate? Eternal Torment doesn't sound soothing or tickle the ears.....
Of course ET tickles the ears... it sounds great to natural man who wishes death or worse to his enemies. But Jesus taught us to love our enemies... Its easier to say you "love" your enemies, while in the back of your mind you know they are gonna get it (eternally)...
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Old 01-04-2010, 08:13 PM
 
Location: missouri
1,179 posts, read 1,176,172 times
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Jesus talks of a not so good place-maybe he was ignorant. Salvation is universal, that is true. Check one of the Timothy books; god is the savior of all men. The bummer in it is that there is included, "especially the church." All men are saved from the nothingness that they came out of. With sin, man is supposed to return to that nothingness-he dies, it has a claim on man (see JOB). The atonement is so powerful it keeps all from returning to the nothingness, or god would lose to nothingness (evil, satan). The fact that every knee bows, or that all men are drawn if the christ was lifted up is because jesus is god and all things, even the devil bows, all things are drawn to god because all things do what he wills of them-even atheists, that is devine sovereignty. His love includes his wrath, so those not "especially the church" can't be with the church. That is divine choice. The fathers were closer to the truth than most today, especially with this mass "free will" movement-that is definitely of pagan origin.
To get around this is simple, just assume the bible doesn't know much, Jesus should have gotten his GED and then make up the rest and put your stuff in where you think it should fit-everyone is doing this nowadays. Even a jack ass told Balaam a thing or two, too bad we don't have many preachers today as smart (a Luther joke).
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Old 01-04-2010, 08:40 PM
 
136 posts, read 168,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
The early church fathers were so misguided and lacked true spiritual guidance that even though they had and believed the greatest news of universalism however they didn't teach it nor share it because they didn't trust the power of God's word instead they usurped God's authority for their own and spreaded a false doctrine a "heresy" called "eternal torment" it is irrelevant if they had good intentions or not-remember Satan comes as an angel of light. So as you see either way the early church fathers were practicing heresy.

Always remember to trust God's word only and preach the gospel, the power of His word.
I am more than happy to hear you don't believe in eternal torment, after all God corrects us not torture us because we did something wrong.
He is certainly more merciful than our earthly fathers.
I am thrilled when I see and hear one more person understands how loving our Father is.
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Old 01-04-2010, 10:33 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,196,917 times
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C'mon people ... read between the lines, he is being "clever"(at least in his own mind) and no less than completely facetious.
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Old 01-04-2010, 10:51 PM
 
136 posts, read 168,832 times
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I was being clever also, I wanted to see how he would respond.
ET is a horrible concept to even consider for a loving God.
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Old 01-04-2010, 10:53 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,402,860 times
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per op
cardinal cisneros of spain had a wonderful solution for these misunderstandings.
the subject just did not come up anymore.
nobody does it better-- carley simon sing it.
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Old 01-05-2010, 07:33 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,706,353 times
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Quote:
The fathers were closer to the truth than most today, especially with this mass "free will" movement-that is definitely of pagan origin
as far as I know this is historically wrong, I'm not 100% sure but I think predestination was first taugt by Augustine, the ancient universalists as Clement of Alexandria, Origenes, Gregor of Nyssa were believers in free will, I think even Tertullian, another Latin theologican who heavily endorsed the doctrine of everlasting torment believed in free will.

A link a found in quick search:

http://www.jarom.net/greekdad.php
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Old 01-05-2010, 09:33 AM
 
Location: missouri
1,179 posts, read 1,176,172 times
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Theology is broad-I was mentally comparing the whole thing to what I feel is today's theology (which seems to me to be in a very poor state and reflects the poor state of the herd's overall thought development) overall and picked the "free will" as an example. Predestination is taught by Paul (and the rest) as well as the prophets (see the incident with pharaoh). Augustine came around to it but it got its strongest expression in the reformation, just like today's theology, all theology is and was influenced by philosophy or more dramatically by the social around it. Free will also has distinctions in it. It depends how one is using free will; in other words, one can speak of free will philosophically, socially, psychologically, etc and still speak of predestination in religion (for example, Kierkegaard writes of free will but also knows one can't place oneself into the truth). I used to be a fundy and the concept of free will as used by them was a philosophical kind applied to salvation, which cancels god's freedom. You are right that the ancients had no corner on the truth and should be read with caution (so should every thing else) but compared with a lot of slop that one finds today, I think they are a better read.
The reason I said it is pagan is because, philosophically, the problem is for one to recognize the truth before one is in it (this is an old way of seeing truth, today we think truth is primarily mere knowledge rather than being something that requires the combination of knowledge and one's being). This was solved by the concept recollection. In other words, one recognizes the truth because one already knows it but has forgotten. In salvation, one has to be in the truth with his being, not merely knowing, but can't because one is totally outside of it (sin, fall). To be saved by the free will implies that the sin nature can accept the truth, sacrifice itself for the new birth. This places the sin nature as a very high state of consciousness, one that can recognize the truth before it's being converted-and do this freely while being a "slave" to sin. In this way, the modern religious free will is knowledge, one hears it, recognizes it, and accepts it. Thereby placing oneself into the truth. That is un-biblical-no matter who taught it. To know the truth one has to be placed into the truth by another-in this case god has to do it each and every time as it is not a knowledge activity as us moderns think.
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