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Old 10-04-2009, 10:53 AM
 
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The early church fathers were so misguided and lacked true spiritual guidance that even though they had and believed the greatest news of universalism however they didn't teach it nor share it because they didn't trust the power of God's word instead they usurped God's authority for their own and spreaded a false doctrine a "heresy" called "eternal torment" it is irrelevant if they had good intentions or not-remember Satan comes as an angel of light. So as you see either way the early church fathers were practicing heresy.

Always remember to trust God's word only and preach the gospel, the power of His word.

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 10-04-2009 at 11:11 AM..
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Old 10-04-2009, 12:04 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,387,998 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
The early church fathers were so misguided and lacked true spiritual guidance that even though they had and believed the greatest news of universalism however they didn't teach it nor share it because they didn't trust the power of God's word instead they usurped God's authority for their own and spreaded a false doctrine a "heresy" called "eternal torment" it is irrelevant if they had good intentions or not-remember Satan comes as an angel of light. So as you see either way the early church fathers were practicing heresy.

Always remember to trust God's word only and preach the gospel, the power of His word.
I'm sorry... what are you trying to say?

What is your gospel from the word? Is it that a sinner must pay for a debt Jesus paid by way of eternal torture or do you believe the gospel is that Jesus paid the debt for all sinners and we should stop acting as if we owe one?

Even later bible scholars got it right. Check this out and perhaps you can comment on the 3 points and the conclusion:
The Biblical Doctrine of Hell
From "The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment"
By Thomas B. Thayer Written in 1855


1. Though
Gehenna occurs twelve times, the Savior actually used it only on four or five different occasions, the rest being only repetitions. If this is the word, and the revelation of this terrible doctrine is in it, how is it possible that Christ, in a ministry of three years, should use it only four times? Was He faithful to the souls committed to His charge?


2. The Savior and James are the only persons in all the New Testament who use the word. John Baptist, who preached to the most wicked of men, did not use it once. Paul wrote
fourteen epistles, and yet never once mentions it. Peter does not name it, nor Jude; and John, who wrote the gospel, three epistles, and the Book of Revelations, never employs it in a single instance. Now if Gehenna or hell really reveals the terrible fact of endless woe, how can we account for this strange silence? How is it possible, if they knew its meaning, and believed it a part of Christ's teaching, that they should not have used it a hundred or a thousand times, instead of never using it at all; especially when we consider the infinite interests involved?


3. The Book of Acts contains the record of the apostolic preaching, and the history of the first planting of the Church among the Jews and Gentiles, and embraces a period of
thirty years from the ascension of Christ. In all this history, in all this preaching of the disciples and apostles of Jesus, there is no mention of Gehenna. In thirty years of missionary effort, these men of God, addressing people of all characters and nations, never, under any circumstances, threaten them with the torments of Gehenna, or allude to it in the most distant manner! In the face of such a fact as this, can any man believe that Gehenna signifies endless punishment, and that this is a part of divine revelation, a part of the Gospel message to the world?


These considerations show how impossible it is to establish the doctrine in review on the word
Gehenna. All the facts are against the supposition that the term was used by Christ or His disciples in the sense of future endless punishment. There is not the least hint of any such meaning attached to it, nor the slightest preparatory notice that any such new revelation was to be looked for in this old familiar word.
We have now passed in review, as far as our limits will permit, the New Testament doctrine of
Hell, and we have not, surely, found it to be the doctrine of endless punishment, but something very wide from this. Let us now turn to other phraseology supposed to embody this thought, and to establish it as a doctrine of divine revelation.

So regardless of the "heresy" of the early church fathers, it was the disciples and Jesus who never taught "eternal torment". Perhaps you will say they are heretical?
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Old 10-04-2009, 02:10 PM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,707,770 times
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as I'm not Catholic I give no much authority on the opinions of the church fathers, many were influenced by paganism and/or Plationism. To hide some "dangerous" truths from the ignorant masses is also something borrowed from Plato's thinking if I remember right.

Some of the church fathers openly taught universalism, Gregor of Nyssa if I remember right. Jerome is often said to have been an universalist though teaching otherwise.

The belief in the immortal soul is Platonism, even the modern idea of eternity might originate in Platonism.

However it's a good argument against traditionalists that the doctrine of eternal torment is rather a modern invention than the original teaching of the early church; till the reformation there was at least a purgatory.
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Old 10-04-2009, 04:38 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,118,147 times
Reputation: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
The early church fathers were so misguided and lacked true spiritual guidance that even though they had and believed the greatest news of universalism however they didn't teach it nor share it because they didn't trust the power of God's word instead they usurped God's authority for their own and spreaded a false doctrine a "heresy" called "eternal torment" it is irrelevant if they had good intentions or not-remember Satan comes as an angel of light. So as you see either way the early church fathers were practicing heresy.

Always remember to trust God's word only and preach the gospel, the power of His word.
I'm a little confused....I thought you believed in ET?
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Old 10-04-2009, 08:01 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,199,823 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
The early church fathers were so misguided and lacked true spiritual guidance that even though they had and believed the greatest news of universalism however they didn't teach it nor share it because they didn't trust the power of God's word instead they usurped God's authority for their own and spreaded a false doctrine a "heresy" called "eternal torment" it is irrelevant if they had good intentions or not-remember Satan comes as an angel of light. So as you see either way the early church fathers were practicing heresy.

Always remember to trust God's word only and preach the gospel, the power of His word.

Rhetoric and erroneous speculation... Any evidence for these charges?The earliest church fathers did teach universalism. Four of the six theological schools in the fist few centuries AD. TAUGHT universal reconciliation along with Many of the early church fathers of that time.

Yes there were some who knew the word taught UR and did whatever they could to discredit this fact out of fear of losing control over the masses, but they hardly represent the majority who taught it even as they knew it to be evident in scripture ...

Why are you lying in order to confuse the issues?
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Old 10-06-2009, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
428 posts, read 691,471 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
I'm a little confused....I thought you believed in ET?
Me too...do you believe in UR, ET or annihalation?
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Old 11-23-2009, 03:40 AM
 
Location: US
26,262 posts, read 13,925,706 times
Reputation: 1592
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
The early church fathers were so misguided and lacked true spiritual guidance that even though they had and believed the greatest news of universalism however they didn't teach it nor share it because they didn't trust the power of God's word instead they usurped God's authority for their own and spreaded a false doctrine a "heresy" called "eternal torment" it is irrelevant if they had good intentions or not-remember Satan comes as an angel of light. So as you see either way the early church fathers were practicing heresy.

Always remember to trust God's word only and preach the gospel, the power of His word.
So, christianity stumbled and fell right out the gate? Eternal Torment doesn't sound soothing or tickle the ears.....
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Old 11-23-2009, 03:43 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,177 posts, read 19,976,834 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Eternal Torment doesn't sound soothing or tickle the ears.....
It does when you think you have escaped it and you believe you are part of a few who have.
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Old 11-23-2009, 03:44 AM
 
Location: US
26,262 posts, read 13,925,706 times
Reputation: 1592
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I'm sorry... what are you trying to say?

What is your gospel from the word? Is it that a sinner must pay for a debt Jesus paid by way of eternal torture or do you believe the gospel is that Jesus paid the debt for all sinners and we should stop acting as if we owe one?

Even later bible scholars got it right. Check this out and perhaps you can comment on the 3 points and the conclusion:
The Biblical Doctrine of Hell
From "The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment"
By Thomas B. Thayer Written in 1855


1. Though Gehenna occurs twelve times, the Savior actually used it only on four or five different occasions, the rest being only repetitions. If this is the word, and the revelation of this terrible doctrine is in it, how is it possible that Christ, in a ministry of three years, should use it only four times? Was He faithful to the souls committed to His charge?


2. The Savior and James are the only persons in all the New Testament who use the word. John Baptist, who preached to the most wicked of men, did not use it once. Paul wrote fourteen epistles, and yet never once mentions it. Peter does not name it, nor Jude; and John, who wrote the gospel, three epistles, and the Book of Revelations, never employs it in a single instance. Now if Gehenna or hell really reveals the terrible fact of endless woe, how can we account for this strange silence? How is it possible, if they knew its meaning, and believed it a part of Christ's teaching, that they should not have used it a hundred or a thousand times, instead of never using it at all; especially when we consider the infinite interests involved?


3. The Book of Acts contains the record of the apostolic preaching, and the history of the first planting of the Church among the Jews and Gentiles, and embraces a period of thirty years from the ascension of Christ. In all this history, in all this preaching of the disciples and apostles of Jesus, there is no mention of Gehenna. In thirty years of missionary effort, these men of God, addressing people of all characters and nations, never, under any circumstances, threaten them with the torments of Gehenna, or allude to it in the most distant manner! In the face of such a fact as this, can any man believe that Gehenna signifies endless punishment, and that this is a part of divine revelation, a part of the Gospel message to the world?


These considerations show how impossible it is to establish the doctrine in review on the word Gehenna. All the facts are against the supposition that the term was used by Christ or His disciples in the sense of future endless punishment. There is not the least hint of any such meaning attached to it, nor the slightest preparatory notice that any such new revelation was to be looked for in this old familiar word.
We have now passed in review, as far as our limits will permit, the New Testament doctrine of Hell, and we have not, surely, found it to be the doctrine of endless punishment, but something very wide from this. Let us now turn to other phraseology supposed to embody this thought, and to establish it as a doctrine of divine revelation.

So regardless of the "heresy" of the early church fathers, it was the disciples and Jesus who never taught "eternal torment". Perhaps you will say they are heretical?
As for John The Baptist, it was not his role. And how often is John The Baptist cited in the NT?
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Old 11-23-2009, 03:52 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,177 posts, read 19,976,834 times
Reputation: 2107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
So, christianity stumbled and fell right out the gate? Eternal Torment doesn't sound soothing or tickle the ears.....
It's very easy to believe it stumbled right from the off . Moses went up a mountain came back down and what were the children of Israel up to ? . Also Paul warned the Ephesian elders what would happen soon after he would leave.
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