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Old 10-07-2009, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,713,032 times
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thanks @ RickLannoye, that section about the ancient view of sheol is very interesting

 
Old 10-11-2009, 04:15 PM
 
20,329 posts, read 15,701,005 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilvan View Post
Nowhere in the Bible can you find that unsaved humans will be tortured for eternity. God said the penalty for sin is DEATH in the Lake of Fire (Rev 20:12-15). Eternal death means they will no longer be resurrected AGAIN, they will be gone forever like they have never existed. The eternal torment in the Lake of Fire is a fate reserved only for the fallen angels only because they are IMMORTAL. Our merciful Father created humans mortal so the unsaved will NOT suffer the same fate of the fallen angels.
The beast and the false prophet will have already been in the lake of fire for one thousand years (Rev. 19:20 compared with Rev. 20:10) before Satan finally is cast into it to join them forever. The beast and the false prophet are human.

When unbelievers are resurrected to stand before Jesus Christ at the Great White Throne judgment (Rev. 20:11-15), they are there in resurrected bodies that are designed for the lake of fire. They do not perish. They are tormented day and night forever and ever.
 
Old 10-12-2009, 09:12 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,713,032 times
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Quote:
The beast and the false prophet are human.
not neccessarily:

Why Conditional Immortality is true and biblical

Quote:
Also, John himself tells us where the beast comes from "the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" (Rev. 11:7) This "beast" is not a human being. Humans do not come out of this pit. The apostle John wants us to know this beast is a demon by telling us his origins. Note: when the devil or the beast and the false prophet were thrown in the lake of fire, WE READ NO WORD ABOUT A SECOND DEATH, but HOWEVER WHEN HUMAN BEINGS are thrown in there, it says SECOND DEATH.

Dirk Warren has some keen insight on this verse....

Adherents of eternal conscious torture often cite the above text, Revelation 20:10, to support their view by suggesting that "the beast and the false prophet" are human beings.... The antichrist is indeed a human being... However, "the beast" from Revelation 19:20 and 20:10 is not referring to this man, but to the evil spirit that possessed him. This is clear because the bible plainly states that the beast originated from the Abyss (Revelation 11:7 and 17:8). "The Abyss," according to scripture, is the furnace-like pit where evil spirits are imprisoned, not human beings (see Luke 8:31; Revelation 9:1-2 and 20:1-3).. Likewise, the false prophet is referred to as "another beast" (13:11-17, 16:13 and 19:20). The Greek for "another" here is allos (al'-los), which means "another of the same kind." Therefore, the false prophet is an evil spirit that originated from the Abyss as well.

For further proof that the beast and the false prophet are evil spirits and not human beings, consider Revelation 16:13: "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon (Satan), and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet." First of all, notice that the beast and the false prophet are spoken of on a par with the devil himself here; this signifies that they are evil spirits... ( For more excellent information visit "Hell Know Dispelling the eternal torture myth" under "links" section).
 
Old 10-12-2009, 01:44 PM
 
20,329 posts, read 15,701,005 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
Both the beast and the false prophet are human. The beast is the antichrist who is the coming world dictator in the Tribulation. He will be enpowered by Satan. He is not Satan himself. Revelation 20:10 says that Satan is thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet already are. Satan is distinguished from the beast. There's not a lot of information on the false prophet but he is human, and very likely will be the Roman Catholic Pope. This is because the Roman Catholic church is the mystery Babylon spoken of in Revelation 17:5.
 
Old 05-04-2011, 02:57 PM
 
Location: US
26,385 posts, read 13,994,881 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
For an alternative view, read this paper:

L. Ray Smith - Letter to John Hagee

An excerpt:

The King James does say in Rev. 11:15 that Christ will reign "for ever and ever." However, when you add the 3rd "and for ever," it becomes unscriptural. Furthermore, as the Authorized Version of Rev. 11:15 is an unfortunate and misleading translation, the phrase "for ever and ever" is also unscriptural. Remember, Greek is a very exact language, but King James is a very inexact translation. Here's what God's "exact" Word says regarding this matter.

It never ceases to amaze me that words (most words in most languages) have fairly precise and restricted meanings until these same words are used in religion, where they apparently lose all logic and preciseness of meaning.

First of all, the Greek in Rev. 11:15 is not "for ever and ever," but "aions of the aions." The Greek is not "and," it is "of." It's in the genitive. Check this out for yourself. "Of" contrasts one thing with another. It does not "add" one thing to another. This is a big difference. Rev. 11:15, "aion" is in the plural, "aions." Now if you insist that "aion" means "for ever" or "eternal," how is it possible to have a plurality of "eternities?" Let me suggest, Mr. Hagee, that that question mark is larger than it appears on this page.

This alone proves that "aion" cannot be translated "eternal." There can be no plurality of eternity. Whatever "aion" means, it cannot mean "eternal."
...

Read the whole link for an eye opener.
one guy writes a letter to another and that proves what?...
 
Old 05-05-2011, 07:01 PM
 
Location: west mich
5,740 posts, read 5,670,410 times
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No possibility of redemption for some?? What kind of God is that.
Sounds more like emotional, fallible humans projecting their desires into gospel.
 
Old 05-05-2011, 08:15 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,683 posts, read 43,321,611 times
Reputation: 11862
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The beast and the false prophet will have already been in the lake of fire for one thousand years (Rev. 19:20 compared with Rev. 20:10) before Satan finally is cast into it to join them forever. The beast and the false prophet are human.

When unbelievers are resurrected to stand before Jesus Christ at the Great White Throne judgment (Rev. 20:11-15), they are there in resurrected bodies that are designed for the lake of fire. They do not perish. They are tormented day and night forever and ever.
Why, Mike, does God want to make them suffer? What POSSIBLE need could the Lord of Lords, the King of Kings, have for petty human suffering? The fact you believe the Lord could Will it, and thus enjoy it, truly disturbs me.

If he doesn't enjoy it then is he truly the all-loving all-powerful God we believe him to be? Can you honestly say he is, without twisting logic or meaning?
 
Old 05-05-2011, 08:16 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,295,475 times
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Preterism solves this whole debate...it's beyond our pay grade
 
Old 05-05-2011, 08:16 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,683 posts, read 43,321,611 times
Reputation: 11862
Quote:
Originally Posted by detwahDJ View Post
No possibility of redemption for some?? What kind of God is that.
Sounds more like emotional, fallible humans projecting their desires into gospel.
You wanna know the true justification for the doctrine? Revenge. Trace it back to grievances against other nations in the Ancient Middle East, the fingerprints are all there. God's judgement in the OT was one of death and cleansing. Now it's been changed to never ending unquenchable vengeance.
 
Old 05-05-2011, 08:36 PM
 
Location: west mich
5,740 posts, read 5,670,410 times
Reputation: 2108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
You wanna know the true justification for the doctrine? Revenge. Trace it back to grievances against other nations in the Ancient Middle East, the fingerprints are all there. God's judgement in the OT was one of death and cleansing. Now it's been changed to never ending unquenchable vengeance.
-- Yep, fallible humans "interpreting" God to suit their own ends, then carrying out actions "in the name of" same. Isn't this tantamount to playing God?
Do ideas become corrupted, due to their gradual modifications over time?
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