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Old 05-05-2011, 09:35 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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twin...the book of life, the judicial arm for Hell, has nothing to do with the pagan non believer....same with the second death...consistency demands it....this is all about covenant people falling from grace...and "burnt" up.

 
Old 05-05-2011, 10:01 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,819,724 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
twin...the book of life, the judicial arm for Hell, has nothing to do with the pagan non believer....same with the second death...consistency demands it....this is all about covenant people falling from grace...and "burnt" up.
I'm sorry sciotamicks, but I don't follow the connections you're trying to make.

Don't need to reply right away... I'll be off for a while.
 
Old 05-05-2011, 10:04 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,683 posts, read 43,199,552 times
Reputation: 11862
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Did I say that God will enjoy the fact that those in the lake of fire will suffer forever? No I did not.

Does the Bible say that God will enjoy the fact that those in the lake of fire will suffer? Not it does not.

But the Bible does say that those who do not receive Christ as Savior will spend eternity in the lake of fire. And that they will be tormented forever.

Eternal life is more than just duration. It is also quality of life. Those who believe in Jesus Christ will live forever in the presence of God in perfect happiness.

Since man's soul is immortal, the unbeliever, having been resurrected will, both body and soul, reside forever in the lake of fire separated from God . Since he will be separated from God there will be no quality of life. There will be no happiness. There will be no peace of mind. There will be great anquish and sorrow. There will be gnashing of teeth. There will be the constant memories of all the times he had the opportunity to receive Christ as Savior but refused to. There will be the overpowering sense of hopelessness and despair. There will be the everpresent realization of his lost condition. And he will be in the presence of others who are in the same condition that he is. Much of the torment will be internal. To what extent there will be external torment, who can say? However, the imagery brought to bear by Jesus' use of Gehenna suggests a place of actual fire.

God has no desire that anyone go to the lake of fire. They go there because they refuse the offer of salvation that God offers them based on the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. Therefore God has no choice but to sentence them to the lake of fire.

In rejecting Christ as Savior, the unbeliever never receives the Righteousness of God and therefore must stand on his own righteousness. The basis for eternal condemnation is not sin because sin was judged at the cross. The unbeliever remains under condemnation because his righteousness cannot satisfy God's perfect Righteousness.
Some say who are we to question God, that we simply don't understand Him. Yes, but then why does he give us the ability to question? Does does he make it SO DARN HARD to accept our fellow humans will spend eternity SUFFERING, no not just some dark soft CS Lewis type 'hell', but being actively TORMENTED. Think of all the images of the Medieval era of people being tormented...I'm sick of talking about it, about how horrible it's supposed to be, and you're probably getting densensitized about it. Oh it's not me, no need to truly think over the consequences...these people deserve it. Have you ever been badly burned, Mike? Even getting burned by a soldering iron for one second hurts like hell (no pun intended) for the rest of the day, and you expect everyone to accept God will do this to most people forever? You imagine yourself there, and then tell me it's fair. How do people even come up with something so spiteful against others? It's no surprise the Quran mentions 'hellfire' so many times. Have you ever read the Quran?

Oh really, if your own mother was a non-believer she deserves to cry out in agony while you sing praises to the Lamb, to God who will not lift one finger to stop her suffering, but being all-powerful actually STOKES THE FIRES OF HER FLAME?

If you were in a position of high-authority and you saw someone being treated cruelly, would you not step in and stop it? Now if you were all-powerful, would you just sit by and let it happen? If you didn't enjoy it you bet your ass you would.

God's judgements may be harsh and fair to others, but I don't think they need involve needlessly causing pain. Can you at least acknowledge that some Christians who fervently accept the Bible (much moreso than myself) have a profound moral problem with this? Instead of constantly trying to prove it to everybody?
 
Old 05-05-2011, 10:54 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,246 posts, read 14,119,588 times
Reputation: 10110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Did I say that God will enjoy the fact that those in the lake of fire will suffer forever? No I did not.

Does the Bible say that God will enjoy the fact that those in the lake of fire will suffer? Not it does not.

But the Bible does say that those who do not receive Christ as Savior will spend eternity in the lake of fire. And that they will be tormented forever.

Eternal life is more than just duration. It is also quality of life. Those who believe in Jesus Christ will live forever in the presence of God in perfect happiness.

Since man's soul is immortal, the unbeliever, having been resurrected will, both body and soul, reside forever in the lake of fire separated from God . Since he will be separated from God there will be no quality of life. There will be no happiness. There will be no peace of mind. There will be great anquish and sorrow. There will be gnashing of teeth. There will be the constant memories of all the times he had the opportunity to receive Christ as Savior but refused to. There will be the overpowering sense of hopelessness and despair. There will be the everpresent realization of his lost condition. And he will be in the presence of others who are in the same condition that he is. Much of the torment will be internal. To what extent there will be external torment, who can say? However, the imagery brought to bear by Jesus' use of Gehenna suggests a place of actual fire.

God has no desire that anyone go to the lake of fire. They go there because they refuse the offer of salvation that God offers them based on the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. Therefore God has no choice but to sentence them to the lake of fire.

In rejecting Christ as Savior, the unbeliever never receives the Righteousness of God and therefore must stand on his own righteousness. The basis for eternal condemnation is not sin because sin was judged at the cross. The unbeliever remains under condemnation because his righteousness cannot satisfy God's perfect Righteousness.
The parallel to this is Israel and the promised land.

God prepared for Israel to take the land from the Canaanites - but they did not believe God's promise. This land was a free gift to the people of Israel - from a promise long ago to Abraham. God desired for them to have the land.

Now God could have easily overlooked their unbelief and let them enter the promised land - but He didn't. He destroyed the unbelievers and brought up a new generation of Israel that believed and entered the promised land.
 
Old 05-06-2011, 01:05 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,203,323 times
Reputation: 892
Does God love everyone? Is God love? Are you telling me love will fail?
 
Old 05-06-2011, 01:15 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,203,323 times
Reputation: 892
Some do not believe in the Victory of God! Do you?
 
Old 05-06-2011, 06:55 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,439,975 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Eternal Punishment Means Exactly That. ''To the Ages of the Ages''


Dear Mike, "to the ages of the ages" does not mean "eternal" any more than "holies of the holies" means unending holies or King of the kings means unending kings. Gheesh! When will you ever learn?
 
Old 05-06-2011, 07:25 AM
 
20,304 posts, read 15,661,748 times
Reputation: 7422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
Some say who are we to question God, that we simply don't understand Him. Yes, but then why does he give us the ability to question? Does does he make it SO DARN HARD to accept our fellow humans will spend eternity SUFFERING, no not just some dark soft CS Lewis type 'hell', but being actively TORMENTED.
If you understood the essence of God, and if you understood the issue of the angelic conflict, you would understand why those who reject Christ will spend eternity in the lake of fire.

I have no problem at all accepting the reality of eternal condemnation. And I have already told you what much of the suffering consists of.

Quote:
Think of all the images of the Medieval era of people being tormented...I'm sick of talking about it,
And yet.....here you are talking about it, trying to rationalize it away.

Quote:
about how horrible it's supposed to be, and you're probably getting densensitized about it. Oh it's not me, no need to truly think over the consequences...these people deserve it. Have you ever been badly burned, Mike? Even getting burned by a soldering iron for one second hurts like hell (no pun intended) for the rest of the day, and you expect everyone to accept God will do this to most people forever? You imagine yourself there, and then tell me it's fair. How do people even come up with something so spiteful against others? It's no surprise the Quran mentions 'hellfire' so many times. Have you ever read the Quran?
The fact that those who have rejected Christ as Savior will spend eternity in the lake of fire is perfectly fair. Again, it is a matter of understanding who and what God is and that He created man to resolve the angelic conflict.

Do you or do you not believe that the Bible is the word of God? Do you or do you not believe what is clearly spoken of concerning fate of those who reject Christ? Matthew 25:41,46; Revelation 20:10-15; Daniel 12:2; 2 Thess 1:7-9.

Quote:
Oh really, if your own mother was a non-believer she deserves to cry out in agony while you sing praises to the Lamb, to God who will not lift one finger to stop her suffering, but being all-powerful actually STOKES THE FIRES OF HER FLAME?
Appeals to the emotion have no bearing on reality. From God's perspective we all deserve to be eternally separated from Him in the lake of fire - Gehenna - the outer darkness - hell. Call it what you will. Yet God has provided the means of escaping that fate. He provided the means of eternal salvation through faith in Christ. God has no desire that anyone spend eternity in hell. 2 Peter 3:9 'The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentence.'

God has made it possible to have eternal life through faith in Christ. Those who end up in the lake of fire have only themselves to blame for ending up there. And instead of recognizing that simple fact, people ignore and reject what the Scriptures say and attempt to impose their notions of what is just and unjust on God.


Quote:
If you were in a position of high-authority and you saw someone being treated cruelly, would you not step in and stop it? Now if you were all-powerful, would you just sit by and let it happen? If you didn't enjoy it you bet your ass you would.

God's judgements may be harsh and fair to others, but I don't think they need involve needlessly causing pain. Can you at least acknowledge that some Christians who fervently accept the Bible (much moreso than myself) have a profound moral problem with this? Instead of constantly trying to prove it to everybody?
I don't cater to the foolishness of those who deny the clear revelation of Scripture and who attempt to mold God into an image that they find desirable.
 
Old 05-06-2011, 07:29 AM
 
20,304 posts, read 15,661,748 times
Reputation: 7422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post

Dear Mike, "to the ages of the ages" does not mean "eternal" any more than "holies of the holies" means unending holies or King of the kings means unending kings. Gheesh! When will you ever learn?
This has been gone over before. Repeating your false arguments don't make them true now anymore than they did before.
 
Old 05-06-2011, 07:34 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,686,143 times
Reputation: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Repeating your false arguments don't make them true now anymore than they did before.

Repeating your false arguments don't make them true now anymore than they did before
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