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Old 10-05-2009, 09:09 PM
 
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The emphatic forms of the word aionos are ''eis aionas aionon'' and ''eis tous aionas ton aionon'' (''unto the ages of the ages''). The emphatic form of aionos is only used to describe unending duration. The double use of the word 'aionios' emphasizes the concept of eternity.

The great Bible commentator R. C. H. Lenski says ''The strongest expression for our 'forever' is eis tos aionan ton aionon, ''for the eons of eons,'' many aeons, each of vast duration, are multiplied by many more, which we imitate by 'forever and ever.'

Read what the real experts have to say about it at this link. It is a very well written paper.

http://diesdomini.com/Papers/Q_Hell_Rev2010.pdf

Although this is a Catholic website, it is nevertheless a good and accurate article explaining the proper meaning of ''unto the Ages of the Ages'' as it applies both to eternal life and to eternal punishment. It's in PDF format.

This is important. The Bible means exactly what it says about the lake of fire and eternal punishment. Don't get lured into the false idea of all people eventually being saved. It simply is not true.

I do not intend to respond to the envitible universalists denial of what is presented in this link. I am simply presenting it for all to read and make of it what you will.

(What I wrote in the first two paragraphs is from the website link.)

 
Old 10-05-2009, 09:16 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,408,216 times
Reputation: 682
For an alternative view, read this paper:

L. Ray Smith - Letter to John Hagee

An excerpt:

The King James does say in Rev. 11:15 that Christ will reign "for ever and ever." However, when you add the 3rd "and for ever," it becomes unscriptural. Furthermore, as the Authorized Version of Rev. 11:15 is an unfortunate and misleading translation, the phrase "for ever and ever" is also unscriptural. Remember, Greek is a very exact language, but King James is a very inexact translation. Here's what God's "exact" Word says regarding this matter.

It never ceases to amaze me that words (most words in most languages) have fairly precise and restricted meanings until these same words are used in religion, where they apparently lose all logic and preciseness of meaning.

First of all, the Greek in Rev. 11:15 is not "for ever and ever," but "aions of the aions." The Greek is not "and," it is "of." It's in the genitive. Check this out for yourself. "Of" contrasts one thing with another. It does not "add" one thing to another. This is a big difference. Rev. 11:15, "aion" is in the plural, "aions." Now if you insist that "aion" means "for ever" or "eternal," how is it possible to have a plurality of "eternities?" Let me suggest, Mr. Hagee, that that question mark is larger than it appears on this page.

This alone proves that "aion" cannot be translated "eternal." There can be no plurality of eternity. Whatever "aion" means, it cannot mean "eternal."
...

Read the whole link for an eye opener.

 
Old 10-05-2009, 09:20 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,685,493 times
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Well, there is no need to deny it, you can believe that Jesus is an utter and pathetic failure if you like, Mike.
 
Old 10-05-2009, 09:27 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,408,216 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Well, there is no need to deny it, you can believe that Jesus is an utter and pathetic failure if you like.

LOL good evening Phazelwood, hope you are well.

You do have a way with words... I don't believe Jesus will be a pathetic failure, He will be 100% successful because Love never fails!

But back on the OP, even Mike's great Bible commentator says this:

The great Bible commentator R. C. H. Lenski says ''The strongest expression for our 'forever' is eis tos aionan ton aionon, ''for the eons of eons,'' many aeons, each of vast duration, are multiplied by many more, which we imitate by 'forever and ever.'

Sounds like eons of eons is only a vast duration multilplied by some number. Doesn't sound like eternity to me. Lets do the math. A vast number multiplied by another number is not infinity. Therefore NOT endless!

Its only "imitated" by 'forever and ever', but it doesn't really mean forever.

If it did mean literally "forever" the extra "and ever" would be redundant.
 
Old 10-05-2009, 09:46 PM
 
Location: UPSTATE SC
1,405 posts, read 2,109,951 times
Reputation: 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The emphatic forms of the word aionos are ''eis aionas aionon'' and ''eis tous aionas ton aionon'' (''unto the ages of the ages''). The emphatic form of aionos is only used to describe unending duration. The double use of the word 'aionios' emphasizes the concept of eternity.

The great Bible commentator R. C. H. Lenski says ''The strongest expression for our 'forever' is eis tos aionan ton aionon, ''for the eons of eons,'' many aeons, each of vast duration, are multiplied by many more, which we imitate by 'forever and ever.'

Read what the real experts have to say about it at this link. It is a very well written paper.

http://diesdomini.com/Papers/Q_Hell_Rev2010.pdf

Although this is a Catholic website, it is nevertheless a good and accurate article explaining the proper meaning of ''unto the Ages of the Ages'' as it applies both to eternal life and to eternal punishment. It's in PDF format.

This is important. The Bible means exactly what it says about the lake of fire and eternal punishment. Don't get lured into the false idea of all people eventually being saved. It simply is not true.

I do not intend to respond to the envitible universalists denial of what is presented in this link. I am simply presenting it for all to read and make of it what you will.

(What I wrote in the first two paragraphs is from the website link.)
Many people here make statements regarding the "Early Church Fathers". From my research on this: The Church Fathers believed in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, honoured Mary, had elaborate ceremonies, prayed for the dead, respected the Church hierarchy, baptized babies, recognized Peter as the Rock, built the Church upon him with successors and followed a rich tradition of Christianity. That was the Christianity of the early days of Christianity and that is the Catholic Church of today.

So . . . many of the doctrine that everyone says regarding Early Church Fathers . . . including ETers and URers . . . . must recognize that the Early Church Fathers are the founding/rock of Catholicism.
 
Old 10-05-2009, 09:55 PM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,254,149 times
Reputation: 6657
Although I'm Catholic I think you can justify Eastern Orthodoxy from the Fathers too.

Nothing like "Protestantism" emerges until the Waldensees of the 12th century. The closest thing to Protestantism before then was maybe the Paulicians, but the Paulicians I believe had a semi-Gnostic belief in the material world being evil and I don't think any Protestant denomination believes that.

The early Protestant theory I think was that there was a "Church invisible" from the "Constantinian shift" to the Waldensees or Lollards or Hussites or whatever. This was average people living a Biblical life even though "Sola Scriptura" had no official standing in any Christian society.

Granted to me this is speculative and unsupportable from history, but I'm Catholic so biased.

More on topic why does the Christianity forum seem so dominated by arguments over Universalism? Other Christian groups I go to aren't dominated by this issue. Is it because the atheists here constantly bring up Hell so you're just following their lead in debating it? Is there some Universalist/Anti-Universalist site that links here? What am I missing?
 
Old 10-05-2009, 10:11 PM
 
37,531 posts, read 25,255,858 times
Reputation: 5857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
More on topic why does the Christianity forum seem so dominated by arguments over Universalism? Other Christian groups I go to aren't dominated by this issue. Is it because the atheists here constantly bring up Hell so you're just following their lead in debating it? Is there some Universalist/Anti-Universalist site that links here? What am I missing?
That the concept of hell . . . and any deity requiring it . . . is so heinous and evil a notion that the deity so described is anathema to atheists and evolved, loving Christians alike.
 
Old 10-05-2009, 10:23 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,685,493 times
Reputation: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifesigns64 View Post
So . . . many of the doctrine that everyone says regarding Early Church Fathers . . . including ETers and URers . . . . must recognize that the Early Church Fathers are the founding/rock of Catholicism.

Tell ya what, you can recognize religion, I'll recognize God and Jesus power to reconcile all mankind, and if it is called purgatory, so be it.
 
Old 10-05-2009, 10:42 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,202,500 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astron1000 View Post
Fine. Believe what you will.

It is not a matter of what you want to believe ... Its a matter of the language used. You can believe in eternal torture if that is what makes you feel good ... But that is not the language used in the bible.

Quote:
... The Pharisees, according to Josephus, regarded the penalty of sin as torment without end, and they stated the doctrine in unambiguous terms. They called it eirgmos aidios (eternal imprisonment) and timorion adialeipton (endless torment), while our Lord called the punishment of sin aionion kolasin (age-long chastisement).
Eternal damnation and the words used to express it by the Jews and Greeks in the time of Christ are completely different than the words Christ used to express the chastening of judgment on the wicked. Christ denounced the doctrine of eternal damnation and the pharisees as being violent and full of spiritual extortion. Do not be deceived any longer by the leaven of the pharisees that mike is spreading and those like him over the past 1,400 years.
 
Old 10-05-2009, 10:48 PM
 
Location: Somewhere on Earth
1,052 posts, read 1,411,196 times
Reputation: 711
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
That the concept of hell . . . and any deity requiring it . . . is so heinous and evil a notion that the deity so described is anathema to atheists and evolved, loving Christians alike.
Hmm...I know I'm going to hell, but I'm okay with it. 'Course, my belief's hell is totally different from that of a burning pit
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