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My heart is saddened by this obvious anticipation of enjoying some vindication by an incongruous divine revenge on all those who have evolved out of the ancient primitive mindset of savages . . . (whose brilliant contemporaries burned babies in sacrifice to Baal or Moloch . . . among other enlightened intellectual behaviors) . . . all because they do not agree with an evil doctrine that God has ANY negative human emotions.
It reminds me of Jonah ... He didn't understand Gods love either and desired God to smite his enemies and not forgive them. He rebelled against God and even after The people of Niniveh had repented he continued to rebel in hatred. Hearts of stone ...
When did salvation begin with you ? Was it not the goodness of God that led you to repentance ? So why do you talk of man having to adjust himself to God's provision of Grace , when the adjusting begins with the goodness of God leading us to repentance.
. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one canboast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
So if it's not by works(anything you and i have done) , where does this adjusting to His grace idea come from ? , bear in mind it's God that causes us to repent.
6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ diedfor the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
My conclusion from reading your posts is you believe in a self righteous gospel
Adjusting to His grace in salvation simply means making the decision to believe in Christ for salvation. Period. No works, no giving up anything, no feeling sorry for your sins. Just believe in Christ for salvation.
If you've read my posts and came to that conclusion, then you're not very good at coming to conclusions.
When Jesus Christ came into the world at the first advent, He came as the Messiah; the Savior. He came into the world to pay the penalty for our sins.
But when Jesus Christ returns at the second advent, He returns not as Savior, but as the righteous judge. He returns and destroys the nations that have attacked Israel. He then establishes His Millennial Kingdom where He will rule as a benevolent dictator. He will rule in love, but also in justice.
When unbelievers appear before Jesus Christ at the Great White Throne judgment of Revelation 20:11-15, at the end of the Millennium, the same Jesus Christ who appeared as Savior at His first appearance, is the same Jesus who will now pronounce in absolute justice and righteousness, that the person who rejected His free gift of salvation, now depart into the eternal lake of fire. Forever and ever. To the ages of the ages. For all eternity.
God's love motivates His grace and is why Christ came into the world to take our punishment in our place. But the Cross was the only way that God could extend His offer of salvation to sinful man which would not compromise His Holiness. In rejecting His grace offer of salvation, God's justice must now come into play. Once you have died, it is too late to change your mind. ''For it appointed unto man to die once and after this comes judgment.'' Heb. 9:27
The opportunity to ''believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved...'' Acts 16:31, is only available to you before you depart from this life. After that, God must exercise His justice in condemnation.
Just so you know!!!
Fear mongering spiritual terrorism ... You don't know what manner of spirit Christ is of (Luk 9:55) ...I would say what manner of spirit ye are of, but i am not convinced you are of the spirit of Christ.
Gods judgments are for the purpose of purification and refinement(Mal 3:2) ... Whatever Judgments god once reserved for Israel have now been given unto all men of every nation. The fiery judgments of God are not for evers(aions) and evers(aions), but are unto the ages of ages, or unto the consummation of the ages ... Aion means age and not for ever.
God judgment against unbelievers will save them and purify them of their unbelief and wickedness, they will be saved as though by fire (1Cr 3:15) ...
After the judgment of fire Christ will renew them ...
Rev 21:5
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
I hope and pray that your will come to Christ if you are reading these things and will not allow the violence and greed of the wicked men to deter you from accepting his grace now ... The judgments of fire will certainly be difficult and i would not that any should suffer them. Nevertheless if you are not able or are unwilling to believe now, be assured you will one day, one way or the other. And then we will walk together as one in Christ and one with God.
It reminds me of Jonah ... He didn't understand Gods love either and desired God to smite his enemies and not forgive them. He rebelled against God and even after The people of Niniveh had repented he continued to rebel in hatred. Hearts of stone ...
Very good point . God's goodness caused the Fundy's to repent and yet they threaten unbelievers with hell and believers who they consider heretics with ET as well .
Fear mongering spiritual terrorism ... You don't know what manner of spirit Christ is of (Luk 9:55) ...I would say what manner of spirit ye are of, but i am not convinced you are of the spirit of Christ.
Gods judgments are for the purpose of purification and refinement(Mal 3:2) ... Whatever Judgments god once reserved for Israel have now been given unto all men of every nation. The fiery judgments of God are not for evers(aions) and evers(aions), but are unto the ages of ages, or unto the consummation of the ages ... Aion means age and not for ever.
God judgment against unbelievers will save them and purify them of their unbelief and wickedness, they will be saved as though by fire (1Cr 3:15) ...
After the judgment of fire Christ will renew them ...
Rev 21:5
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
I hope and pray that your will come to Christ if you are reading these things and will not allow the violence and greed of the wicked men to deter you from accepting his grace now ... The judgments of fire will certainly be difficult and i would not that any should suffer them. Nevertheless if you are not able or are unwilling to believe now, be assured you will one day, one way or the other. And then we will walk together as one in Christ and one with God.
Just so you know ...
In the Koine Greek,the empathic forms of aionos ''eis aionas aionon'' and ''eis tous aionas ton aionon'' are used only to describe unending duration. To the ages of the ages means ''forever.'' ''The strongest expression in the Koine Greek for our English word ''forever'' is eis tous aionan ton aionon,--for the eons of eons. The same phrase is used both for the eternity of God's throne and for the eternal lake of fire.
You keep playing the same tired old record. And it's just as scratched and distorted as it has always been.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15 is the Bema seat or judgment seat of Christ for believers, and is for the purpose of evaluating the believers works as either Gold, silver, and precious stones, which are rewarded, or being determined to be wood, hay, and stubble, which are burned. 1Cor. 3:12-15 may be compared with 2 Corinthians 5:10, and with Romans 14:10. These may then be Contrasted with Revelation 20:11-15 which is the Great White Throne judgment which is for Unbelievers Only. At the Great White Throne judgment, unbelievers are condemned to the eternal lake of fire on the basis of their works. They rejected the work of Christ on the Cross in paying the penalty for sin, and so since sin has already been judged and cannot be judged again, the unbeliever is condemned on the basis of his own works. The Great White Throne judgment is punitive and eternal.
The two different judgments are separated by over one thousand years. For those who may have difficulty understanding the differences on your own, look to what the commentators have to say. The research is easily available on the internet. One of its better uses.
Universalism is a Satanic distortion designed to lure people into thinking that the Cross doesn't matter because God will just turn around and save you anyway in complete disregard of His absolute and perfect righteousness.
It makes a mockery of the Cross and makes God out to be a liar.
Frankly, if anyone is dumb enough to lured into it...
And further, I don't intend to waste anymore of my time replying to this poster. Everyone is responsible for their own decisions and must bear the consequences if they make the wrong choice. So do your research.
And now for some good old fashioned sanctifed sarcasm,
In the Koine Greek,the empathic forms of aionos ''eis aionas aionon'' and ''eis tous aionas ton aionon'' are used only to describe unending duration. To the ages of the ages means ''forever.'' ''The strongest expression in the Koine Greek for our English word ''forever'' is eis tous aionan ton aionon,--for the eons of eons. The same phrase is used both for the eternity of God's throne and for the eternal lake of fire.
No they are not ... endless duration is described by very different terms ... You're simply lying, but perhaps you just are not able to realize it. Josephus never used the word aionios or aion to represent everlasting or unending, neither did Philo ... Only Greek helenists used the terms to represent unending time as the image of eternity, because they didn't believe that time would end when the bible clearly teaches that it will.
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The language of Josephus is used by the profane Greeks, but is never found in the New Testament connected with punishment. Josephus, writing in Greek to Jews, frequently employs the word that our Lord used to define the duration of punishment (aionios), but he applies it to things that had ended or that will end. Can it be doubted that our Lord placed his ban on the doctrine that the Jews had derived from the heathen by never using their terms describing it, and that he taught a limited punishment by employing words to define it that only meant limited duration in contemporaneous literature? Josephus used the word aionos with its current meaning of limited duration. He applies it to the imprisonment of John the Tyrant; to Herod's reputation; to the glory acquired by soldiers; to the fame of an army as a "happy life and aionian glory." He used the words as do the Scriptures to denote limited duration, but when he would describe endless duration he uses different terms.
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Philo, who was contemporary with Christ, generally used aidion to denote endless, and aionian temporary duration. He uses the exact phraseology of Matt. xxv: 46, precisely as Christ used it: "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and æonian punishment (chastisement) from such as are more powerful." Here we have the precise terms employed by our Lord, which show that aionian did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ. Philo adopts athanaton,ateleuteton or aidion to denote endless, and aionian temporary duration. In one place occurs this sentence concerning the wicked: "to live always dying, and to undergo, as it were, an immortal and interminable death." Stephens, in his valuable "Thesaurus," quotes from a Jewish work: "These they called aionios, hearing that they had performed the sacred rites for three entire generations." This shows conclusively that the expression "three generations" was then one full equivalent of aionian. Now, these eminent scholars were Jews who wrote in Greek, and who certainly knew the meaning of the words they employed, and they give to the aeonian words the sense of indefinite duration, to be determined in any case by the scope of the subject. Had our Lord intended to inculcate the doctrine of the Pharisees, he would have used the terms by which they described it. But his word defining the duration of punishment was aionian, while their words are aidion, adialeipton, and athanaton. Instead of saying with Philo and Josephus, thanaton athanaton, deathless or immortal death; eirgmon aidion, eternal imprisonment; aidion timorion, eternal torment; and thanaton ateleuteton, interminable death, he used aionion kolasin, an adjective in universal use for limited duration, and a noun denoting suffering issuing in amendment. The word by which our Lord describes punishment is the word kolasin, which is thus defined: "Chastisement, punishment."
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You keep playing the same tired old record. And it's just as scratched and distorted as it has always been.
I will keep playing it and i will continue to proclaim the complete victory of Christ over sin and death until the lord takes me and i will keep destroying the walls of hell and eternal death that you worship.
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1 Corinthians 3:12-15 is the Bema seat or judgment seat of Christ for believers, and is for the purpose of evaluating the believers works as either Gold, silver, and precious stones, which are rewarded, or being determined to be wood, hay, and stubble, which are burned. 1Cor. 3:12-15 may be compared with 2 Corinthians 5:10, and with Romans 14:10. These may then be Contrasted with Revelation 20:11-15 which is the Great White Throne judgment which is for Unbelievers Only. At the Great White Throne judgment, unbelievers are condemned to the eternal lake of fire on the basis of their works. They rejected the work of Christ on the Cross in paying the penalty for sin, and so since sin has already been judged and cannot be judged again, the unbeliever is condemned on the basis of his own works. The Great White Throne judgment is punitive and eternal.
No my friend, it is very simple ... The wicked servants are allotted their portion with the unbelievers, therefore their judgment is the same as unbelievers, both parties will be saved as though by fire.(Luk 12:46)
The fiery judgment of mens works in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 is the same judgment of works in Revelation 20:11-15 ... But due to bad exegesis and violent hearts your pastor/teachers have been deceived and have continued to deceive others.
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The two different judgments are separated by over one thousand years. For those who may have difficulty understanding the differences on your own, look to what the commentators have to say. The research is easily available on the internet. One of its better uses.
There is the judgment of nations at Christs return, when the goat nations and the sheep nations are divided. These are the people who are alive and remain after the great tribulation in those times. The sheep nations enter the new city of Jerusalem, the Goat nations are not allowed with the gates of the city but will be in outer darkness which is the world outside the new city where there will still be suffering and death and gnashing of teeth. The wicked and the righteous are judged for their works, the Believers(good servants) at Christs return and the unbelievers(and wicked servants) at the end of the ages before or during the renovation of the earth by fire.
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Universalism is a Satanic distortion designed to lure people into thinking that the Cross doesn't matter because God will just turn around and save you anyway in complete disregard of His absolute and perfect righteousness.
Universal reconciliation was the original Gospel taught by 4 of the 6 theological schools in the first five centuries(Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis), while the false doctrine of eternal torment was invented in and taught in the pagan capital of the world at the time(Carthage/Rome) and it wasn't made orthodox doctrine until the sixth century after being championed by the Gnostic/Christian patron saint of eternal torture, Augustine, who also taught babies who died were damned as well.
There is nothing more evil in men's vain imaginations then eternal torture, you are full of violence and hate and therefore you cannot understand this.
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It makes a mockery of the Cross and makes God out to be a liar.
Universal reconciliation is the truth of the Cross of Christ.
Col 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
reconcile from the Greek apokatallassō 1) to reconcile completely 2) to reconcile back again 3)bring back a former state of harmony
Your traditions are what make the word of God to none effect and your legalist doctrines have caused you to fall from grace and you are deceived by the spirit of anti-Christ.
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Frankly, if anyone is dumb enough to lured into it...
Frankly the truth of the word of reconciliation is revealing the true power of the Cross of Christ and is growing faster and faster not only among the Christian community but it is being received by unbelievers alike as they find new purpose and validity in the true Gospel of love and grace.
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And further, I don't intend to waste anymore of my time replying to this poster. Everyone is responsible for their own decisions and must bear the consequences if they make the wrong choice. So do your research.
You never had to reply to me mike, you have made the choice to do so of your own volition. I will however continue to disprove your fallacious doctrines of demons which teach eternal death and sin. And there is nothing you can do about it. The lord has sent me to destroy your false religion, and those others like me who are taking it apart brick by brick until nothing of it is left standing just like the temple of Israel was destroyed for the false doctrines and teachings of hate and violence which Israel had been deceived by. Get used to it ...
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And now for some good old fashioned sanctifed sarcasm,
Your sanctimonious false religion of demons and your phariseeic teachings and your self important and self righteous sickness of mind and spirit will be healed, and i will rejoice together with you on that day.
Amen and Selah ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 10-08-2009 at 11:11 PM..
Jesus is savior through His teachings and you are your own judge. Do you not understand "What you sow so shall you reap"? No one pays for your sins except you. You are the one who has to get back into harmony with God. Jesus already did that for himself now it's up to you to do the same for yourself.
Jesus is savior through His teachings and you are your own judge. Do you not understand "What you sow so shall you reap"? No one pays for your sins except you. You are the one who has to get back into harmony with God. Jesus already did that for himself now it's up to you to do the same for yourself.
Jesus Christ is Savior because of His work on the Cross in paying the penalty for our sins. That is the reason He came into the world. Jesus Christ did not have to ''get back into harmony with God.'' He IS God. He is also perfect true humanity. He was born without sin and lived a perfect life free from sin. He was therefore qualified to go to the cross where He died a substitutionary spiritual death in bearing our sins and being judged for each and every one of those sins. In paying the penalty for our sins, He removed those sins from us as far as the east from the west. (Psalms 103:12)
This is what is meant by universal reconciliation. Universal reconciliation simply means that Christ paid the penalty for every sin in the human race, past, present, and future, that would ever be committed. It means that sin has been removed as a barrier. But universal reconciliation is not universal salvation as the universalists erroniously think it is. Reconciliation is applied only to those who make a volitional decision to believe in Christ for salvation.
God requires a volitional decision on the part of humanity to either believe in Christ for salvation or not to believe in Christ and therefore be condemned to the lake of fire for all eternity. ''Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.'' (Acts 16:31) ; ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (believe) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.'' (John 3:36)
After you have believed in Christ for salvation, sin becomes an issue, not in salvation, but in the matter of spirituality versus carnality. A sin commited by a believer puts that believer into a state of carnality where he is controlled by his old sin nature (the old man-Rom. 6:6) A believer does not lose his salvation when he sins, he simply is walking according to the flesh as opposed to walking in the Spirit (Rom. 8:13) The solution to being restored to fellowship with God in which you are filled with the Holy Spirit (Eph 5:18) is the use of the principle of 1 John 1:9, ''If we name our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.''
When we simply name the sin directly to God the Father, we are agreeing with God that we have commited a sin. And since that sin was already judged on the Cross, God simply forgives and forgets it, and you are restored to fellowship. Failure to name your known sins to God will result in divine discipline. ''For whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives.'' (Heb. 12:6) also, ''Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; be zealous therefore, and repent. (Rev. 3:19.)
And the principle is 1 Cor. 11:31. ''But if we judged ourselves rightly, we should not be judged.''
ironically I've always seen God primarily as judge, not as a father or love.
Love, at least human love can have a dark, maniac, irrational side; but not so true justice and justness as I expect from God - Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker? - Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
It's my sense for justice that is especially offended by the doctrine of everlasting torment.
Paul says in Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
as long as Paul was no sadist, the only sane reason that remains why he called the ressurection of the unjust also a hope, was that it will also benefit them; or would you hope for that human beings will suffer torment forevermore to infinity?
If you rejoice in the doctrine of hell than be it so; some of you guys appear as if you were searching for any support that hell exists with a devilish zeal that is actually scaring.
....When unbelievers appear before Jesus Christ at the Great White Throne judgment of Revelation 20:11-15, at the end of the Millennium, the same Jesus Christ who appeared as Savior at His first appearance, is the same Jesus who will now pronounce in absolute justice and righteousness, that the person who rejected His free gift of salvation, now depart into the eternal lake of fire. Forever and ever. To the ages of the ages. For all eternity....
Is it better to move towards something because you love it (carrot) or to move away from something because you fear it? (stick.) Why not instead of preaching hellfire and damnation, preach love and humility?
"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matthew 22: 37-40
It is my opinion that the focus for Christians should not be to argue about the specific individual and denominational beliefs of fellow followers of Jesus Christ, it should instead be about how best to live our whole lives the way Jesus taught we should live; having love and a prayer in our heart at all times, and keeping God's commandments to the very best of our abilities.
I think we should all focus instead of preaching hellfire and damnation for everyone who doesn't believe exactly as we do, on the Sermon on the Mount. We should be taking the initiative each day to do something GOOD for our neighbor regardless of their religious beliefs or none at all.
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." James 1: 27
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