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Old 10-09-2009, 12:23 PM
 
20,317 posts, read 15,665,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
You have no idea what this verse is talking about...
Just like the pharisees had no idea what Jesus was talking about
The Bible is quite clear. The meaning is quite clear. Your denial is quite clear.
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Old 10-09-2009, 12:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend1111 View Post
So what you're saying is that anyone of us can go out in the world and commit murder, rape, theivery and the like and it's ok as long as we believe that Jesus has already saved us from that sin?

It's the same thing as saying if you stole a car, your neighbor is going to jail. It's really quite stupid to think that a person is going to save you from the very acts you committed that weren't in harmony with God. Jesus won't pay the penalty for you. You have to do that by forgiveness and repenting for what you have done to others. No one will do that except you. I dont care what's in the bible, Jesus isn't paying your tab. He showed you how to do it now it's up to you if you're willing to fork over the money.
Christ paid the penalty for every sin of every person in the history of the human race, past, present and future. That means that when you believe in Him for salvation you have eternal life and you can never lose it. That does not give you a license to sin. And if you commit crimes such as the ones you mentioned, you will have to be punished by the law of the country in which you live. For crimes such as murder, the Bible says the penalty is death.

But those crimes do not cause you to lose your salvation. You merely come under discipline in time.

Your statement that 'you don't care what's in the Bible' says it all. There's nothing more to say.
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Old 10-09-2009, 12:47 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,290,245 times
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Mike and SPM

Sin is perpetual as long as there is flesh. Through salvation does not come with a price for us, and through that price that Christ paid for our salvation, there is refining...sanctification. We must try to become better, walk with Him, although we will stray, the focus must never be compromised. This is salvation of the spirit.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Jesus fulfilled the law...all of them, and by His sin offering it is finished. The incorruptible is ours by the regenration of the spirit from Him. In Him we are to stand, and in Him must our focus be. We will still sin, always, because we are flesh. But when that flesh dies, and He judges us for our preserverance and being quick to repentance, we won't suffer the second death.
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Old 10-09-2009, 12:57 PM
 
20,317 posts, read 15,665,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Mike and SPM

Sin is perpetual as long as there is flesh. Through salvation does not come with a price for us, and through that price that Christ paid for our salvation, there is refining...sanctification. We must try to become better, walk with Him, although we will stray, the focus must never be compromised. This is salvation of the spirit.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Jesus fulfilled the law...all of them, and by His sin offering it is finished. The incorruptible is ours by the regenration of the spirit from Him. In Him we are to stand, and in Him must our focus be. We will still sin, always, because we are flesh. But when that flesh dies, and He judges us for our preserverance and being quick to repentance, we won't suffer the second death.
Once you are saved you are always saved. The doctrine of the perserverance of the saints is false. Sin does not cause you to lose your salvation. It only brings you under divine discipline in time. The second death is the eternal condemnation of unbelievers to the lake of fire. Believers will never see the second death. And sin will never be mentioned in the unbelievers condemnation, because all sin was paid for by Christ. It is the works of the unbeliever by which he is comdemned.
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Old 10-09-2009, 01:24 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Believers will never see the second death....because all sin was paid for by Christ.
I understand this Mike..this is clear in the scripture. But what is not, is this doctrine:

Quote:
Once you are saved you are always saved.
Even Paul said he was in danger of spiritual death. How do you reconcile this belief to Matthew 13? This doctrine is not scriptural.
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Old 10-09-2009, 01:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
It is my belief Mike that God the Father is the literal PARENT of our spirit body. He loves us perfectly. It is not His desire, nor the desire of our elder brother Jesus Christ that we be cast into a lake of fire and brimstone. It is their desire that we be saved from such a fate. It is only we ourselves who by our choices to disobey Him and be unkind to others dam our eternal progression, hinder our ability to live happily with and love others, all others, forever.

Can you imagine where you will settle in the spirit worlds that await the death of our physical body if in your mind you still rise up in great railing judgments upon your brothers and sisters, thinking some who do not believe exactly as you do are just fuel for lakes of fire and brimstone?
God the Father is not the literal parent of our ''spirit body.'' God the Father is our heavenly Father by virtue of the fact that the church age believer is in union with Christ through the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We don't have spirit bodies. We have a physical body, a soul, and a spirit. And when the believer dies and is in heaven, there is apparently some kind of interim body, until the resurrection occurs

If you do not believe in Jesus Christ for salvation you are already condemned to the lake of fire forever. The only way to come out from under condemnation is to believe in Christ for salvation. He paid the penalty for sin and now attitude toward Him is the issue in salvation.

The point of this thread is not to teach 'hellfire and damnation.' The point of this thread is to put the lie to those who say that God will save you from eternal condemnation whether you believe in Christ or not.

Quote:
Will your brothers and sisters in the spirit worlds who can read your thoughts and see clearly what's written on your countenance even want to be around you when you offer them a stick or a stone instead of the pure love of Jesus Christ?
The dead do not read your thoughts. They are completely unaware of what is going on on earth.
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Old 10-09-2009, 02:00 PM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,709,605 times
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Quote:
Christ paid the penalty for every sin of every person in the history of the human race, past, present and future.
what about unbelief?

Quote:
The dead do not read your thoughts. They are completely unaware of what is going on on earth.
though they are in heaven?

Quote:
And when the believer dies and is in heaven, there is apparently some kind of interim body, until the resurrection occurs
sounds like a contradiction, or do you mean, the dead are alive in heaven but only they do not know what happens on earth?
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Old 10-09-2009, 02:17 PM
 
Location: Indianapolis
4,325 posts, read 5,135,262 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Christ paid the penalty for every sin of every person in the history of the human race, past, present and future. That means that when you believe in Him for salvation you have eternal life and you can never lose it. That does not give you a license to sin. And if you commit crimes such as the ones you mentioned, you will have to be punished by the law of the country in which you live. For crimes such as murder, the Bible says the penalty is death.

But those crimes do not cause you to lose your salvation. You merely come under discipline in time.

Your statement that 'you don't care what's in the Bible' says it all. There's nothing more to say.
Have you ever heard of Karma? Synchronicity? That is you paying the penalty not Jesus. What YOU sow, so shall YOU reap. That is what that means. It doesn't mean what you sow, Jesus will reap for you. Theres a reason Jesus said it. He never once said He will atone for your sins. Not once. The writers of the bible misunderstood Jesus and the way to God.

I'm a Divine Love christian and I have the right to voice my opinions here. Just because I don't believe the bible is the word of God doesn't mean I don't know what Jesus taught. I know what He taught.
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Old 10-09-2009, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Indianapolis
4,325 posts, read 5,135,262 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The dead do not read your thoughts. They are completely unaware of what is going on on earth.
The dead do hear our thoughts. They also can teach you and guide you through this world. You'll see after you die. You are in for quite a surprise!!!
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Old 10-09-2009, 03:18 PM
 
20,317 posts, read 15,665,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I understand this Mike..this is clear in the scripture. But what is not, is this doctrine:



Even Paul said he was in danger of spiritual death. How do you reconcile this belief to Matthew 13? This doctrine is not scriptural.
I assume you are referring to the unpardonable sin in Matt.12:31. Jesus refrained from using His own deity while on the earth during His first advent. He relied on the ministry of God the Holy Spirit in performing His miracles. The Pharisee's accused Christ of performing His miracles through the power of Satan.

Look at Matt. 12:24. ''But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, ''This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.''

In verses 25-29, Jesus explained the fallacy of what the Pharisee's were accusing Him of.

In saying that Jesus was performing His miracles through Satan, they were denying that Christ was the Messiah. They were blaspheming the Holy Spirit by denying that it was the Holy Spirit who was responsible for Jesus' miracles and instead were attributing those miracles to Satan. In doing so, they were denying that Jesus Christ was the Messiah.

The unpardonable sin was and is the rejection of Jesus Christ as Savior. Jesus Christ is the issue in salvation. And if you reject Him you are not saved. But at the moment that you do believe in Him you are saved and will never lose your salvation.

The unpardonable sin was ''Blasphemy against the Spirit,'' which was attributing to Satan the miracles that were performed by Christ through the Holy Spirit, and was tantamount to rejection of Christ.

For as long as a person continues to reject Christ as Savior, they cannot be pardoned, even though their sins were paid for.

To be technically correct, the one sin that Christ could not die for was rejecting Him as Savior, because making a decision to believe in Him had to remain as the issue in salvation.

But once you accept Him as Savior, you are eternally secure, and can never lose your salvation.

One of the ministries of the Holy Spirit at the point of salvation is His sealing ministry. The sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit is His signature guarantee of eternal salvation and eternal security. (Eph.1:13-14)

In all, there are some forty things that God does for the Church Age believer at the moment of salvation that guarantee that we can never lose our salvation.
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