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And no, won't see ya there, nor will you be there, we are just an animal existing for a brief period of time on this rock, and when dead......... that's it, dead, no after life, no meetings with mythical beings, no streets of gold (silly concept, playing to the greed?) or lakes of fire.
I fully recognize that your wishes are not hostile, but I view your wish for me to fall for a fallacy completely misguided, bordering on insulting, as I have too much respect for myself.
If there were any gods, 2,000+ years searching as believer do would produce evidence. Gods exist only in the minds of those that believe they exist. If that gives you comfort, that's great, go for it. I'm too logical and reasoning to even think about going there, especially based on nothing.
What, you think believers can't be logical or reasoning individuals? Right, you must be an unbeliever to be logical or reasonable. I don't believe in a torturous never-ending lake of fire any longer, although I used to. Any reasonable, logical thinking person imo doesn't believe in that. And yes, you will see me there eventually, though not right away because there will be a price to pay for your unbelief, it's just not eternal.
You seem like an intelligent person Asheville so I don't want to insult you in any way, it's an honest, good will wish for you to experience the kind of peace that I have found, and love, by knowing Jesus as my Savior. That's all, not being "preachy" and definitely not telling you you're going to hell, cause you're not.
no streets of gold (silly concept, playing to the greed?)
I always thought the "streets of gold" thing was referring to what we thought was valuable in THIS life, will really be nothing in the next...
"Gold" is being used as mere asphalt. Our "riches" are not what man's riches are... They are spiritual riches. Such as... love. What we thought was important or what man clamored after here, is stupid... nothing... worthless... (material things.) Thus the "streets" pavement, asphalt being made of our so-called "precious" gold.
Sorry... didn't mean to go off topic there. But I saw "streets of gold" and that thought jumped in my head, had to voice it.
There are several different interpretations/symbolic things.. but that's just one that I always think of.
ok, sorry... carry on. let me shut up.
I always thought the "streets of gold" thing was referring to what we thought was valuable in THIS life, will really be nothing in the next...
"Gold" is being used as mere asphalt. Our "riches" are not what man's riches are... They are spiritual riches. Such as... love. What we thought was important or what man clamored after here, is stupid... nothing... worthless... (material things.) Thus the "streets" pavement, asphalt being made of our so-called "precious" gold.
Sorry... didn't mean to go off topic there. But I saw "streets of gold" and that thought jumped in my head, had to voice it.
There are several different interpretations/symbolic things.. but that's just one that I always think of.
ok, sorry... carry on. let me shut up.
LOL! Your thoughts and opinions are always welcome Sparrow. Not sure I understand it cause I'm really looking forward to those "streets of gold" but I'm trying!
LOL! Your thoughts and opinions are always welcome Sparrow. Not sure I understand it cause I'm really looking forward to those "streets of gold" but I'm trying!
What, you think believers can't be logical or reasoning individuals? Right, you must be an unbeliever to be logical or reasonable. I don't believe in a torturous never-ending lake of fire any longer, although I used to. Any reasonable, logical thinking person imo doesn't believe in that. And yes, you will see me there eventually, though not right away because there will be a price to pay for your unbelief, it's just not eternal.
You seem like an intelligent person Asheville so I don't want to insult you in any way, it's an honest, good will wish for you to experience the kind of peace that I have found, and love, by knowing Jesus as my Savior. That's all, not being "preachy" and definitely not telling you you're going to hell, cause you're not.
Why is it that just because you were not happy and content until you adjusted your way of thinking that you think the rest of us are unhappy and discontent and need to do something about it?
How do you know...or why do you think...our level of contentedness/happiness/lovingness is not the same or possibly even greater, than yours?
And the debate continues...Sharp debate at high court over cross on US land - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091007/ap_on_go_su_co/us_supreme_court_mojave_cross - broken link)
Well then...there is only one "most fair way" to handle it in this country.
Put it to a vote...let "We the People" decide how it should be. There no more fair way than that.
And not the reps...the PEOPLE. MOF...with modern technology we don't need reps anymore...we don't need a Congress...we don't even need a Supreme Court. EVERYTHING possible should be presented on a C-Span type show for 30 days with presentations pro and con...then a 72 hour window where each citizen over 18 can vote their S.S.# by telephone or internet. With "The Will of The People" presiding. THAT'S the "most fair" way...anything else is less fair.
A vote by "the people" should be used as much as possible. That's why The Constitution indicates that is how we are to pick our Reps. They provided for Reps because there was no other way to do it at the time...and those Reps were supposed to mirror the majority of their constituency. With modern technology we CAN have a "We the People" system. Nowadays with "touch-tone" telephone service and the internet...we could have "The People" vote on EVERYTHING. We didn't have the technology before..but we do now. If 100 million+ votes could be cast for American Idol contestants, we could have people vote their Social Security number for every Bill, Official, and issue imaginable. Cast your vote without going to a polling location. I bet you'd get 90%+ voter participation.
TRUE...Government Of the People, By the People, and For the People!
Well then...there is only one "most fair way" to handle it in this country.
Put it to a vote...let "We the People" decide how it should be. There no more fair way than that.
And not the reps...the PEOPLE. MOF...with modern technology we don't need reps anymore...we don't need a Congress...we don't even need a Supreme Court. EVERYTHING possible should be presented on a C-Span type show for 30 days with presentations pro and con...then a 72 hour window where each citizen over 18 can vote their S.S.# by telephone or internet. With "The Will of The People" presiding. THAT'S the "most fair" way...anything else is less fair.
A vote by "the people" should be used as much as possible. That's why The Constitution indicates that is how we are to pick our Reps. They provided for Reps because there was no other way to do it at the time...and those Reps were supposed to mirror the majority of their constituency. With modern technology we CAN have a "We the People" system. Nowadays with "touch-tone" telephone service and the internet...we could have "The People" vote on EVERYTHING. We didn't have the technology before..but we do now. If 100 million+ votes could be cast for American Idol contestants, we could have people vote their Social Security number for every Bill, Official, and issue imaginable.
Really really really bad idea. Terrible idea. But this debate belongs in politics - not here.
Really really really bad idea. Terrible idea. But this debate belongs in politics - not here.
OK....Forget the last part...that does stray off track.
But do you think a vote on the issue of the OP (the cross on govt land) is a bad idea? And, why (either way)?
I mean...if we can take votes about things like legalizing smoking weed...we can vote on something like this. What could be more "fair" than a decision based on a vote?
I'm for a strict, strict separation of church and state, and yes, I am a Christian. I support this separation to protect the Christian faith from the actions of the state as much as to protect the state from the church. Remember, states that were officially "Christian," run by a church (whether Catholic or Protestant), burned people at the stake for doing or believing things the official state church found heretical. Faith and politics are like oil and water - they don't mix. To answer the OP, no, there should be no crosses on public land, and there should be no vote on it because of the establishment clause. I don't want to associate the cross of Jesus Christ with the actions of the government, or vice versa.
What, you think believers can't be logical or reasoning individuals? Right, you must be an unbeliever to be logical or reasonable. I don't believe in a torturous never-ending lake of fire any longer, although I used to. Any reasonable, logical thinking person imo doesn't believe in that.
And how do you now view those that believe in what you used to believe in? It was apparently logical to you at some point, now it is not. Something helped you clear at least that part of the illogical thinking of lakes of fire from your beliefs. The next step is to clear the rest of the illogical beliefs from your mind, and really really experience peace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright
And yes, you will see me there eventually, though not right away because there will be a price to pay for your unbelief, it's just not eternal.
Nope, that's just your belief, and I find that aspect of what you believe to be illogical. There is a price for not believing, but I don't pay it, I collect it, the clarity of my existence so that I can appreciate it in the here and now and not be preoccupied with a fantasy. The more logical a believer appears to is in direct opposition to the amount of the irrational aspects they still believe in. So yes, I see the belief in a god illogical, I see the belief in arks and lakes of fire, and creation extremely illogical. For the really serious fundi's, I just have to shake my head in amazement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright
You seem like an intelligent person Asheville so I don't want to insult you in any way, it's an honest, good will wish for you to experience the kind of peace that I have found, and love, by knowing Jesus as my Savior. That's all, not being "preachy" and definitely not telling you you're going to hell, cause you're not.
And that is why the thought of even considering gods and all the trappings of any religion is so completely illogical.
You make more sense than a great many in these threads, so you are headed in the right direction As do few others I won't mention, but I suspect you can figure who they are and they out have moved from extreme fundy to a more moderate believe, much aligned with you beliefs, and they seem clearly more rational.
Can you answer the question, why do believers just say "you need to believe" but give no rational as to why, other than hell, or "there will be a price to pay for your unbelief" (to quote you), but where is the rational? Threats may persuade some, but if there is no rational to the threat, there is no threat.
As an atheist I have never said you need to stop, but I do challenge the believer to challenge the rational of their belief. No one will every stop or start based on being told to, but only through a personal decision based on rational or irrational information.
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Sorry... didn't mean to go off topic there. But I saw "streets of gold" and that thought jumped in my head, had to voice it.
Really really really bad idea. Terrible idea. But this debate belongs in politics - not here.
), but where is the rational? Threats may persuade some, but if there is no rational to the threat, there is no threat.
