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Old 10-09-2009, 09:23 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,681,073 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
And all you've done is trade one lie for a bigger one.

Yes, there is no hell burning with fire that 'never goes out' and leads to "never ending punishment." However the Word does teach God will have vengence on His enemies.

What you fail to realize... for those, who never had a chance to hear with understanding the equalizer is the Millennium.

God ways are not our ways, so if we depict God as nothing more than a vengeful man, then we can count on God NOT being that way.
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Old 10-09-2009, 09:24 PM
 
Location: USA
1,895 posts, read 4,038,777 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Sundance we don't have to. According to you I go to heaven. I can cuss God all day, kill Christians in the most brutal manner, no repentance. Oh I am sure I get a horrible "correction" what that correction is? I have no idea but in the end I make it to heaven
What are you talking about? Your posts make no sense. Link to where I said this.....I don't even know why I am replying; this is so off-the-wall.....I think you have me confused with someone else...........? Or perhaps there is some other problem going on here.....
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Old 10-09-2009, 09:56 PM
 
37,472 posts, read 25,217,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
Yes, there is no hell burning with fire that 'never goes out' and leads to "never ending punishment." However the Word does teach God will have vengence on His enemies.
Vengeance is a negative human emotion fueled by the weakness of a bruised and hurt human ego. God has NO WEAKNESSES . . . so there is no vengeance. God has set up the universe and all that is in it with specific "laws" (gravity, etc. . . . including spiritual ones). Failure to consider them and adjust our lives to them has CONSEQUENCES . . . but no punishment or vengeance-taking to assuage a non-existent wrath. Wrath is the product of human weakness . . . God does NOT . . . do I need to repeat?

I am fairly certain that the consequences will be consistent with the degree to which we fail to avoid them . . . just as stepping off a foot stool does not produce the same consequence in violating God's law of gravity as stepping off a 30 story building would. God does not get angry when you do that . . . God is saddened by our ignorance and foolishness. I am sure whatever spiritual "emergency rooms" exist to repair the effects of our ignorance or willfulness will be more than adequate. Especially since they will no doubt be be run by Jesus.
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Old 10-10-2009, 03:16 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,126 posts, read 19,958,111 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Sundance we don't have to. According to you I go to heaven. I can cuss God all day, kill Christians in the most brutal manner, no repentance. Oh I am sure I get a horrible "correction" what that correction is? I have no idea but in the end I make it to heaven
Fundy i think you have your wires crossed here . From what i remember Sundance is not an universalist.
I have time and respect for Sundance because regardless of what Sundance may believe about ET or church doctrine she is not in your face about them and from what i remember for the best part is all about the grace of God .
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Old 10-10-2009, 08:35 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,706,353 times
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btw. concerning 2nd Esdras, the book quoted in the first post, this resources are quite interesting:

History of Opinions on the Scriptural Doctrine of Retribution by Edward Beecher

(Chapter 11 in the link above)

Mercy And Judgment by Canon F.W. Farrar
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Old 10-10-2009, 11:31 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,196,917 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
And all you've done is trade one lie for a bigger one.

Yes, there is no hell burning with fire that 'never goes out' and leads to "never ending punishment." However the Word does teach God will have vengence on His enemies.

What you fail to realize... for those, who never had a chance to hear with understanding the equalizer is the Millennium.
Thats not what the vast majority of Christians in the first five centuries believed, and that is not what i believe. I am simply believing the original gospel and the written word ... I am sorry you cant understand it. One day you will and you will rejoice in the loving kindness and tender mercies of our lord and savior. His judgments are righteous, and all people will learn righteousness when his judgments are in the world ... (Isa 26:9)



Death will have no victory over any part of Gods creation. Your gospel of everlasting death and destruction will be swallowed up in victory right along with it. Now you can truly love your enemies and not be afraid of losing them for ever to death or torments everlasting ... Or any of your loved friends and family who might not believe the way you do now.

(Isa 25:8,1Cr 15:54-55)
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Old 10-10-2009, 12:33 PM
 
37,472 posts, read 25,217,301 times
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What all the God-fearing Christians seeking JUSTICE for what happens in this brief human existence fail to understand is . . . NOTHING can earn or deserve ETERNAL ANYTHING for what is done ("works") in less than 100+ years of human life . . . NEITHER eternal life NOR eternal punishment. Fear is a misplaced continuation of primitive motivations based on ancient ignorance and beliefs about an oxymoronic "Divine Wrath" . . . recorded and perpetuated without thought or understanding for 2000+ years. God is LOVE and that LOVE is INFINITE. There is no hint of anger, wrath, vengeance, jealousy, or ANY other human weakness in it.
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Old 10-11-2009, 01:45 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,196,917 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
btw. concerning 2nd Esdras, the book quoted in the first post, this resources are quite interesting:

History of Opinions on the Scriptural Doctrine of Retribution by Edward Beecher

(Chapter 11 in the link above)

Mercy And Judgment by Canon F.W. Farrar

I find it quite strange and certainly contradictory of his character and self professed theology, that Clement of Alexandria who was a believer and teacher of universal reconciliation and or apocatastasis, held second Esdras as being divinely inspired and canonical ... I wish i could ask him how he justified the contradiction of theology between himself and the message of 2nd Esdras. Especialy in the message of second esdras concerning the fact that there could be no intercession for any person by another where final judgment is concerned. That obviously flies in the face of the gospel as Christ himself intercedes for all humanity. They must have understood something about the book back then that we are at a lost to grasp now.
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Old 10-11-2009, 04:50 PM
 
3,576 posts, read 451,983 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
I am not saying Abraham's descends aren't MANY of course they are. God promised they would be...

I am saying the remnant is not many. They are not as the dust or the sand.

There are only a few that make up the remnant.

Ro 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a *remnant shall be saved:

*remanant #2640. kataleimma kat-al'-ime-mah from 2641; a remainder, i.e. (by implication) a few:--remnant.

The word kataleimma is only used one place in the N. T. and that is the above verse in Romans.

So we see the word renedered remnant in this verse DOES mean few (in number) or a remainder.

So how can this remnant then be numerous? It makes no sense. You are mixing apples with oranges.
I believe that the remnant that is saved refers to the spirit and relates to the fact that flesh and blood do not inherit the kingdom of God - it is not "physical" Israel who are the children of God and it is not our carnal flesh that is saved, it is what is left after purification that is saved.
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Old 10-11-2009, 06:37 PM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,564,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
I believe that the remnant that is saved refers to the spirit and relates to the fact that flesh and blood do not inherit the kingdom of God - it is not "physical" Israel who are the children of God and it is not our carnal flesh that is saved, it is what is left after purification that is saved.
Amen.
  • Zephenia 3:8 Therefore wait upon me, saith the Lord, until the day when I rise up for a witness: because my judgment shall be on the gatherings of the nations, to draw to me kings, to pour out upon them all my fierce anger: for the whole earth shall be consumed with the fire of my jealousy. 9 For then will I turn to the peoples a tongue for her generation, that all may call on the name of the Lord, to serve him under one yoke. 10 From the boundaries of the rivers of Ethiopia will I receive my dispersed ones; they shall offer sacrifices to me. 11 In that day thou shalt not be ashamed of all thy practices, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then will I take away from thee thy disdainful pride, and thou shalt no more magnify thyself upon my holy mountain. 12 And I will leave in thee a meek and lowly people; 13 and the remnant of Israel shall fear the name of the Lord, and shall do no iniquity, neither shall they speak vanity; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed, and lie down, and there shall be none to terrify them.
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