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Old 10-12-2009, 12:38 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,683,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Mark 3:29

But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." NIV

but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;' YLT
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________
hath not forgiveness = never be forgiven
eternal sin = age during judgement

no forgiveness for unbelief in the after life ... never ("hath not forgiveness")

Even the YLT can't get around that one.... unbelievers just doesn't have forgiveness

"Never means never"

Not arguing that it is never forgiven, the truth of the passage is about paying the penalty. You do not need forgivness when a penalty is owed.

You pay it. You cannot pay a penalty if you are forever paying it.
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Old 10-12-2009, 01:40 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,823 posts, read 9,815,113 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Not arguing that it is never forgiven, the truth of the passage is about paying the penalty. You do not need forgivness when a penalty is owed.

You pay it. You cannot pay a penalty if you are forever paying it.
That correct. That is why it's eternal. Unbelievers don't have the enough capital to repay God.
Jesus used a situation that they did understand in Luke 12:54-57 to make that point. Hell has been compared to the equilivant of being thrown into prision. In those days, you had no income when thrown into jail, let alone enough to pay for a serious crime with a large penalty.

That is the situation the Teachers of the Law and Pharisee's knew what he was implying. Jesus ends with this comparison:

"try hard to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."
  • "try hard to be reconciled to him" .... belief in Christ
  • "on the way" ... is your life on earth
  • " or he may drag you off to the judge," ..... if not while alive, you'll be dragged to the judge...(does that sound voluntary when you're dragged)
  • "the judge" .... is Jesus\God
  • "the judge turn you over to the officer" ... the officer are the angels
  • "the officer throw you into prison." ..... you are thrown into hell
  • "I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny." ... with no income or means of an income in jail, how long will it take to pay the last penny? .....
answer:----eternally.
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Old 10-12-2009, 01:46 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,683,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
That correct. That is why it's eternal. Unbelievers don't have the enough capital to repay God.
Jesus used a situation that they did understand in Luke 12:54-57 to make that point. Hell has been compared to the equilivant of being thrown into prision. In those days, you had no income when thrown into jail, let alone enough to pay for a serious crime with a large penalty.

That is the situation the Teachers of the Law and Pharisee's knew what he was implying. Jesus ends with this comparison:

"try hard to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."
"try hard to be reconciled to him" .... belief in Christ
"on the way" ... is your life on earth
" or he may drag you off to the judge," ..... if not while alive, you'll be dragged to the judge...(does that sound voluntary when you're dragged)
"the judge" .... is Jesus\God
"the judge turn you over to the officer" ... the officer are the angels
"the officer throw you into prison." ..... you are thrown into hell
"I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny." ... with no income or means of an income in jail, how long will it take to pay the last penny? ..... eternally

When you pay the last penny of your sentence you go free, even if your are executed, you have paid the penalty and you are free from the prison.

Even if you die in prison from serving a life sentence, you are free from the prison in which you were sent to. It does not add up to eternity.

It adds up to being that you cannot get out of the consequenses that are owed concerning the law of sowing and reaping.

If you have to serve 5 years, you may have to pay every last penny of that time.
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Old 10-12-2009, 02:35 PM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,564,897 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
That is the situation the Teachers of the Law and Pharisee's knew what he was implying. Jesus ends with this comparison:
Biblical and Talmudic Sources

Originally, Jewish law absolutely rejected the concept of imprisonment for debt. Biblical law prohibits the creditor from prejudicing the debtor's basic necessities of life. The creditor is enjoined to "stand outside" and not to enter the debtor's home in order to collect his *pledge (Ex. 22:24–26; Deut. 24:6, 10–12), a fortiori, therefore, it is forbidden to imprison the debtor (see also *Execution, civil law). It is noteworthy that at that time Jewish law in general gave only the most limited recognition to the use of imprisonment, even in the field of criminal law (see *Imprisonment). This absolute prohibition was maintained in talmudic times and for a considerable time thereafter. Thus, Maimonides laid down: "but if the debtor is found to have no assets or only such as form part of the "arrangement" (see *Execution, civil law) that is made for the debtor, then the debtor is allowed to go his way and he is not imprisoned" (Yad, Malveh 2:1).
  • Exodus 22:26 "If you take your neighbor's cloak as a pledge of repayment, you must return it by nightfall."
Quote:
Unbelievers don't have the enough capital to repay God
Scripture?

  • Ezekiel 16:40 They shall also bring up a company against thee, and they shall stone thee with stones, and thrust thee through with their swords. 41 And they shall burn thine houses with fire, and execute judgments upon thee in the sight of many women: and I will cause thee to cease from playing the harlot, and thou also shalt give no hire any more. 42 So will I make my fury toward thee to rest, and my jealousy shall depart from thee, and I will be quiet, and will be no more angry.
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Old 10-12-2009, 02:58 PM
 
988 posts, read 1,574,662 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Latte'Chic View Post

Quote:
As much as I have read of this teaching of universal reconciliation, I'm really beginning to wonder if that teaching is not the unforgivable sin....

This teaching is another form of the original lie Satan told Eve - "Ye shall not surely die"

HK
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Old 10-12-2009, 04:52 PM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,564,897 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Latte'Chic View Post
...that if a person does not repent of their sin, they will not be eternally separated from God, yet universal reconciliation teaches that one day everyone will be regardless if they do or don't!
Latte'Chic that is not what we believe... or most of us anyway I obv. can't speak for all. No one is saved apart from regognizing their sin... repenting of their sin... seeing their need for mercy... and putting their trust in Christ for salvation... seeking Him with all their heart and strengh. It is not "regardless of if they do or don't" because if they never do this, they will never enter the kingdom of God. Christ is the only way to the Father.

If you had said "in this lifetime" or "before death" they have to repent... yes, that is where we differ... we do not believe God's mercy "runs out" at death. But that is quite different from saying that anyone will enter the kingdom of God apart from repenting and turning to Christ.
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Old 10-12-2009, 04:59 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,823 posts, read 9,815,113 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
Biblical and Talmudic Sources

Originally, Jewish law absolutely rejected the concept of imprisonment for debt. Biblical law prohibits the creditor from prejudicing the debtor's basic necessities of life. The creditor is enjoined to "stand outside" and not to enter the debtor's home in order to collect his *pledge (Ex. 22:2426; Deut. 24:6, 1012), a fortiori, therefore, it is forbidden to imprison the debtor (see also *Execution, civil law). It is noteworthy that at that time Jewish law in general gave only the most limited recognition to the use of imprisonment, even in the field of criminal law (see *Imprisonment). This absolute prohibition was maintained in talmudic times and for a considerable time thereafter. Thus, Maimonides laid down: "but if the debtor is found to have no assets or only such as form part of the "arrangement" (see *Execution, civil law) that is made for the debtor, then the debtor is allowed to go his way and he is not imprisoned" (Yad, Malveh 2:1).
  • Exodus 22:26 "If you take your neighbor's cloak as a pledge of repayment, you must return it by nightfall."
Scripture?

  • Ezekiel 16:40 They shall also bring up a company against thee, and they shall stone thee with stones, and thrust thee through with their swords. 41 And they shall burn thine houses with fire, and execute judgments upon thee in the sight of many women: and I will cause thee to cease from playing the harlot, and thou also shalt give no hire any more. 42 So will I make my fury toward thee to rest, and my jealousy shall depart from thee, and I will be quiet, and will be no more angry.
It doesn't matter what scripture you're wanting for proof. Jesus said you won't get out till you paid the last penny. Jesus was using this as an example to the pharisee's who loved money who thought God could be purchased.
You aren't goint to buy \ talk \ barter you way out from judgement.
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Old 10-12-2009, 05:03 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,823 posts, read 9,815,113 times
Reputation: 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
When you pay the last penny of your sentence you go free, even if your are executed, you have paid the penalty and you are free from the prison.

Even if you die in prison from serving a life sentence, you are free from the prison in which you were sent to. It does not add up to eternity.

It adds up to being that you cannot get out of the consequenses that are owed concerning the law of sowing and reaping.

If you have to serve 5 years, you may have to pay every last penny of that time.
The lie of Satan is get a person to think that there is the ability to get free once jugded to hell. Once your in, you're in.
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Old 10-12-2009, 05:12 PM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,564,897 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
You aren't goint to buy \ talk \ barter you way out from judgement.
God isn't looking to be paid off with talk or money. God is looking for a broken spirit, a contrite heart, true repentance.
  • Deuteronomy 32:35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste. 36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left
The purpose behind paying the last mite of debt has nothing to do with buying God off. The purpose of God's vengeance on the vine of Sodom & Gommorah is to bring about a contrite heart within them, described as "when He seeth their power is gone" in the above passage.

Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 10-12-2009 at 05:49 PM..
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Old 10-12-2009, 05:49 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,389,248 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Kupp View Post
This teaching is another form of the original lie Satan told Eve - "Ye shall not surely die"

HK
LOL they didn't die until 1000 some odd years later.... some swift punishment, and they still lived their lives and had kids

I do not think "die" means what you think it means. It was not that deception that convinced Eve to eat the fruit... that showed that the punishment was not "sudden death" because in her response to the serpent she says "lest you die", which seems insignificant but in the serpents "surely die" and

It was the same "surely die" as God said when you see the hebrew emphasizes the death by using the word for die twice. Eve uses die once.

So Eve thought she would suddenly die if she ate it... that was not the case, she would die in a sense that she is "doomed to die." If God is stating that Eve would suddenly die using Eve's words, then yes the serpent would have lied. BUT the serpent uses the same words that God does so the serpent is giving her clarification of God's words to her misunderstanding of "die."
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