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Old 10-08-2009, 05:19 PM
 
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LOL....LOL....The bible is not a 20th century book written by a 20th century American author.

Man! Lucy your performance was awesome last night. You were so good the world was at your feet.

(John 12:19) So the Pharisees said to one another, "You see that you are not doing any good; look, the world has gone after Him."

I didn't know China knew about Jesus at that time. WOW!?
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:25 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,501,081 times
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(John 12:19) So the Pharisees said to one another, "You see that you are not doing any good; look, the world has gone after Him."

I didn't know China knew about Jesus at that time. WOW!?
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:27 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,235,756 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
LOL....LOL....The bible is not a 20th century book written by a 20th century American author.

Man! Lucy your performance was awesome last night. You were so good the world was at your feet.

(John 12:19) So the Pharisees said to one another, "You see that you are not doing any good; look, the world has gone after Him."

I didn't know China knew about Jesus at that time. WOW!?
What are you going on about ... ?

I asked how you explained the apparent contradiction. So your saying when john wrote that God loved the world, he didn't mean the whole world?


Or are you saying the when john wrote that we should not love the world, that he meant we should not love the whole world?

Please clarify ...

By the way, it could be understood that when the pharisees said that the whole world (kosmos - the created universe) had gone after Christ ... That they were referring to his miracle, that nature itself should obey his command, even so much so that he could raise the dead.
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:32 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,586 posts, read 5,368,963 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Honestly Miss Shawn, i wonder if you have eyes to see at all.
the blind only see what they are told is there by other blind people. And then they all end up in the ditch.

I could read the above quoted verses to any 1st grader and even at their level of reading comprehension they would be able to decipher what you seem to think is so mysterious.

The bible says..

God is the savior of all men ...

You see ...

God is not the savior of all men.

The bibles says Jesus will make everything new ...

You see Christ will not make everything new ...

The bible says God was in Christ reconciling all things to himself whether in heaven or in earth ...

You see God will not reconcile everything to himself whether in heaven or in earth ...

The bible says God is in Christ reconciling the world, not imputing their sins unto them ...

You see God is not reconciling the world and he is imputing their sins unto most of them.

You cannot see what is there just as clear as day.
Nope, I see

2 Thessalonians1:9
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

2 Thessalonians 1:8
in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:35 PM
 
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Jesus saves, NOT Jesus fails to save.
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:38 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,235,756 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828 View Post
Nope, I see

2 Thessalonians1:9
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

2 Thessalonians 1:8
in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Thats funny this is what my bible says ...

2 Thessalonians1:8-9
in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength

So which translations stands in obvious contradiction with these verses ...

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (1 timothy 4:10)

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (2 Cor 5:19)

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. (rev. 21:5)

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. (Col 1:20) ...



Yeah, it makes all the difference in the world how you translate one little word.

The fact is the doctrine of Eternal Torture relies on the mistranslation of a few words ... Aion, aionion, aionios, gehenna, hades, sheol, and tartaroo ... Translate the properly and the phantom doctrine disappears altogether.
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:40 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,501,081 times
Reputation: 747
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
What are you going on about ... ?

I asked how you explained the apparent contradiction. So your saying when john wrote that God loved the world, he didn't mean the whole world?


Or are you saying the when john wrote that we should not love the world, that he meant we should not love the whole world?

Please clarify ...

By the way, when the pharisees said that the whole world had gone after Christ ... They were referring to his miracle, that nature itself should obey his command, even so much so that he could raise the dead.
No they were referring to people in general, that's it, OFTEN throughout the bible "world" is used in this general sense.

What pomposity, the "apparent contradiction" Yes we have missed that glaring contradiction for hundreds of years thank you for pointing it out to us. We will now go against our better judgment and believe something else. I love it when universalists, mystics, liberation theologist, pro homosexual Christians and others come to us and go look at the contradiction, and that contradiction, and that contradiction.

Here is a question, seriously why does it matter? I mean really why? We are all going to heaven. So rejoice in the good news
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:43 PM
 
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Proof that the early christians who spoke koine Greek as their native language didn't understand aion or its adjectives mean eternal or everlasting at all. However, evil men desiring control over the masses wanted to add words to the bible to make it teach the doctrine of eternal torture, even though they knew it wasn't written in the bible to begin with ...

Quote:
It is conceded that the half-heathen emperor held to the idea of endless misery, for he proceeds not only to defend, but to define the doctrine. He does not merely say, "We believe in aionion kolasin," for that was just what Origen himself taught. Nor does he say "the word aionion has been misunderstood; it denotes endless duration," as he would have said, had there been such a disagreement. But, writing in Greek, with all the words of that copious language from which to choose, he says: "The holy church of Christ teaches an endless aeonian (ateleutetos aionios) life to the righteous, and endless (ateleutetos) punishment to the wicked." If he supposed aionios denoted endless duration, he would not have added the stronger word to it. The fact that he qualified it by ateleutetos, demonstrated that as late as the sixth century the former word did not signify endless duration. Justinian need only to have consulted his contemporary, Olympiodorus, who wrote on this very subject, to vindicate his language. In his commentary on the Meteorologica of Aristotle, he says: "Do not suppose that the soul is punished for endless ages in Tartarus. Very properly the soul is not punished to gratify the revenge of the divinity, but for the sake of healing. But we say that the soul is punished for an aeonian period, calling its life, and its allotted period of punishment, its aeon." It will be noticed that he not only denies endless punishment, and denies that the doctrine can be expressed by aionios declares that punishment is temporary and results in the sinner's improvement. Justinian not only concedes that aionios requires a word denoting endlessness to give it the sense of limitless duration, but he insists that the council shall frame a canon containing a word that shall indisputably express the doctrine of endless woe, while it shall condemn those who advocate universal salvation. Now though the emperor exerted his great influence to foist his heathen doctrine into the Church canons, he failed; for nothing resembling it appears in the canons enacted by the synodical council.


The synod voted fifteen canons, not one of which condemns universal restoration.

Universalism
The
Prevailing Doctrine


Of The
Christian Church
During Its First
Five Hundred Years
(and showing the influence of Greek Mythology
and pagan philisophy on Christian Doctrine)

With Authorities and Extracts
By J.W. HANSON, D. D.
--I Corinthians xv. 28
Boston and Chicago
Universalist Publishing House
1899
Put into electronic format by Glade Swope in 1999 for the benefit of all mankind.



Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:44 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,427 posts, read 20,168,399 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Kupp View Post
Num 15:27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.

Num 15:28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.


Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.


Num 15:31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

One cannot understand the Scriptures if one does not distinguish between sins of ignorance and willful (presumptuous) sin just as God does.


HK
Can you give an example of sin commited in ignorance ?.
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:45 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,586 posts, read 5,368,963 times
Reputation: 577
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Thats funny this is what my bible says ...

2 Thessalonians1:8-9
in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength

So which translations stands in obvious contradiction with these verses ...

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (1 timothy 4:10)

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (2 Cor 5:19)

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. (rev. 21:5)

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. (Col 1:20) ...



Yeah, it makes all the difference in the world how you translate one little word.

The fact is the doctrine of Eternal Torture relies on the mistranslation of a few words ... Aion, aionion, aionios, gehenna, hades, sheol, and tartaroo ... Translate the properly and the phantom doctrine disappears altogether.
Yes, it does, that is why it is important the study and sit under the teaching of the bible and the teaching of the hebrew/greek/aramic language. Which most don't even do.

I am not impressed when someone study a couple of greeks words, I can study a few words, but prefer to sit under the teaching of the Jewish bible in that language. Anyway, I am about to watch a movie.
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