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Old 10-09-2009, 09:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
Did you not read the passage??? The church, the bride is the city, the New Jerusalem. These are not two separate things...they are one and the same.
The Church is identifed with the New Jerusalem. The Church is identifed as God's heavenly people. When the New Jerusalem descends from heaven and is suspended above the earth, the church inhabits the New Jerusalem. The church is not itself the actual city. It resides in the city.

The Church is the body of believers who are also called the bride of Christ. Every believer in the dispensation of the church is a part of the church.

The New Jerusalem is described as a city with its dimensions clearly delineated in Rev. 21.

Of course, maybe your dimensions are fifteen hundred miles on a side, in which case I recommend going on a diet.

At this very moment the city New Jerusalem is in Heaven and is where those believers who have died are residing. The church, the body of Christ is still being formed here on earth as people believe in Christ for salvation. When the body of Christ is complete, then the Church is raptured.

If you are not able to discern from the description given of the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21:10-27, that it is a literal city that is inhabited by the church, then you can't. It is just that simple.
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Old 10-09-2009, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Lifesigns, the New Jerusalem being 1500 miles on each side as well as its height could mean either a cube shape or a pyramid shape. I personally would prefer a pyramid shape as I think it's a more pleasing shape. Which would you prefer?
If you indeed believe that the New Jerusalem is 1500 square miles (not counting height) then that is 960,000 acres which is exactly the same size as the Juneau Icefield... Take a look at it here: Helicopter Tour To Juneau Icefield And Glacier


Hopefully you think that only a small percentage of people will be there because if everyone that has ever been saved is located there...each would have about 1 square foot of living space. Even if the city was built up to 1500 miles high (which is not possible for humans) there would not be enough space to hold even a small percentage of the estimated 106 Billion people that have been born on this earth since that is about 3 billion cubic miles...That's less than 4% of those who have been born that will be in that space.

This is how we know these are not actual measurements...
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Old 10-09-2009, 09:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
If you indeed believe that the New Jerusalem is 1500 square miles (not counting height) then that is 960,000 acres which is exactly the same size as the Juneau Icefield... Take a look at it here: Helicopter Tour To Juneau Icefield And Glacier


Hopefully you think that only a small percentage of people will be there because if everyone that has ever been saved is located there...each would have about 1 square foot of living space. Even if the city was built up to 1500 miles high (which is not possible for humans) there would not be enough space to hold even a small percentage of the estimated 106 Billion people that have been born on this earth since that is about 3 billion cubic miles...That's less than 4% of those who have been born that will be in that space.

This is how we know these are not actual measurements...
Not 1500 square miles. Fifteen hundred miles on each side, including it's height of fifteen hundred miles. Read Rev.21:16. If you disagree, then you are disagreeing with the Bible.
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Old 10-09-2009, 10:16 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Not 1500 square miles. Fifteen hundred miles on each side, including it's height of fifteen hundred miles. Read Rev.21:16. If you disagree, then you are disagreeing with the Bible.
1500 cubic miles.... is only 3 billion miles of area. There are an estimated 106 billion people born since the beginning (a low estimate to be sure). So that would give 6 billion people 1/2 cubic mile of space to occupy. 12 billion could have 1/4 cubic mile of space to occupy... 24 billion could have 1/8th cubic mile of space to occupy.... 48 billion could have 1/16 cubic mile of space to occupy....

So what percentage of people will be living on the 1500th mile floor of this New Jerusalem? Because on the literal earth... "astronaut wings" are awarded to any person making it above 50 miles high... at 62 miles up you reach the atmosphere and beyond that into the solar system...

I mean geez!

The space station is about 200 miles above the surface of the earth...Is 1500 miles straight up really possible? or is it that you will have to make the new heavens and new earth something incomparable to the current one? Or perhaps you are wrong and there is no literal interpretation of these measurements...

I feel sorry for those living in the portion of New Jerusalem that are in the atmosphere... Perhaps that is hell?


Again, the measurements from a purely mathematical standpoint are outrageous fiction/symbolic, not to be taken literally.
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Old 10-09-2009, 10:33 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Not 1500 square miles. Fifteen hundred miles on each side, including it's height of fifteen hundred miles. Read Rev.21:16. If you disagree, then you are disagreeing with the Bible.
To the OP and Mike:

Even the bible commentators are aware that first:

"And he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. I suppose that these vast dimensions, a number twelve times one thousand, both favorite Hebrew numbers, are intended to indicate the vastness of the city, rather than its exact size."

Second, "The stupendous height, length, and breadth being exactly alike, imply its faultless symmetry, transcending in glory all our most glowing conceptions."

Third, "The change of emblems from a bride to a city, shows that we are only to take general ideas from this description. The wall is for security. Heaven is a safe state; those who are there, are separated and secured from all evils and enemies. This city is vast; here is room for all the people of God. The foundation of the wall; the promise and power of God, and the purchase of Christ, are the strong foundations of the safety and happiness of the church."

So yes the city is directly representing the church and the measurements are not literal! BTW it is 1200 cubic furlongs not 1500 miles. 1000 furlongs between each gate.

Either way.. simple mathematics taught in grade school show that it is so vast an area that it cannot be accurate and there are undoubtedly too many humans to comfortably fit in that area. Only about 7 billion people occupy 57 million square miles of land on earth... can you really imagine even that 7 billion out of 106 billion born on earth fitting in that space?

Please!!!! Read the many commentaries for yourself! Revelation 21:16 Bible Commentary
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Old 10-09-2009, 11:05 AM
 
20,292 posts, read 15,633,754 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
To the OP and Mike:

Even the bible commentators are aware that first:

"And he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. I suppose that these vast dimensions, a number twelve times one thousand, both favorite Hebrew numbers, are intended to indicate the vastness of the city, rather than its exact size."

Second, "The stupendous height, length, and breadth being exactly alike, imply its faultless symmetry, transcending in glory all our most glowing conceptions."

Third, "The change of emblems from a bride to a city, shows that we are only to take general ideas from this description. The wall is for security. Heaven is a safe state; those who are there, are separated and secured from all evils and enemies. This city is vast; here is room for all the people of God. The foundation of the wall; the promise and power of God, and the purchase of Christ, are the strong foundations of the safety and happiness of the church."

So yes the city is directly representing the church and the measurements are not literal! BTW it is 1200 cubic furlongs not 1500 miles. 1000 furlongs between each gate.

Either way.. simple mathematics taught in grade school show that it is so vast an area that it cannot be accurate and there are undoubtedly too many humans to comfortably fit in that area. Only about 7 billion people occupy 57 million square miles of land on earth... can you really imagine even that 7 billion out of 106 billion born on earth fitting in that space?

Please!!!! Read the many commentaries for yourself! Revelation 21:16 Bible Commentary
Only chuch age believers will be in the New Jerusalem. Believers of other dispensations will reside on the earth itself.

Rev. 21:16 says 1500 miles to a side. Period.
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Old 10-09-2009, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Only chuch age believers will be in the New Jerusalem. Believers of other dispensations will reside on the earth itself.

Rev. 21:16 says 1500 miles to a side. Period.
NIVİThe city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia in length, and as wide and high as it is long.
NASİThe city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as the width; and he measured the city with the rod, fifteen hundred miles; its length and width and height are equal.
ISVİThe city was square: its length was the same as its width. He measured the city with his rod, and it was about 1,374 miles long. Its length, width, and height were the same.
GWTİThe city was square. It was as wide as it was long. He measured the city with the stick. It was 12,000 stadia long. Its length, width, and height were the same.
KJV And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
AKJ And the city lies foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
ASV And the city lieth foursquare, and the length thereof is as great as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs: the length and the breadth and the height thereof are equal.
BBE And the town is square, as wide as it is long; and he took the measure of the town with the rod, one thousand and five hundred miles: it is equally long and wide and high.
DRB And the city lieth in a foursquare, and the length thereof is as great as the breadth: and he measured the city with the golden reed for twelve thousand furlongs, and the length and the height and the breadth thereof are equal.
DBY And the city lies four-square, and its length is as much as the breadth. And he measured the city with the reed twelve thousand stadia: the length and the breadth and height of it are equal.
ERV And the city lieth foursquare, and the length thereof is as great as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs: the length and the breadth and the height thereof are equal.
WBS And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the hight of it are equal.
WEY The plan of the city is a square, the length being the same as the breadth; and he measured the city furlong by furlong, with his measuring rod--it is twelve hundred miles long, and the length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
WEB The city lies foursquare, and its length is as great as its breadth. He measured the city with the reed, Twelve thousand twelve stadia. Its length, breadth, and height are equal.
YLT and the city lieth square, and the length of it is as great as the breadth; and he did measure the city with the reed -- furlongs twelve thousand; the length, and the breadth, and the height, of it are equal;

The words translated in the bold are:
dōdeka: two and ten, i.e. twelve
chiliadōn: one thousand (as opposed to "chiliad" which is "thousand".
stadiōn:a stadium (a Gr. measure of length), by impl. a racecourse, distance, race, mile,...

So... it is two and ten one thousands distances..that's 12 not 15!
1200 or 12000 miles no 5 to be found in there~

12 gates, 12 foundations, 12 angels, 12 tribes of Israel, 12 apostles of the Lamb.. All found in Rev. 21... all the same word dōdeka!

Please don't tell me it is 15 because there is no way to remotely convert ten and two to 15... you are in error. The BBE, NAS, and ISV are also incorrect. How they came upon those numbers is mind boggling. Perhaps you can enlighten me.

Also, you are under the impression that those "who remain at his coming" are the only ones allowed in the New Jerusalem? The population of Christianity in the world (alive today) is approx. 2.1 billion...how many will reside in the New Jerusalem? Do you have scripture for that?

My next question, logically, is: How do you determine that what you (who is alive at his coming) are more deserving of entry into the New Jerusalem than the disciples and followers in the 1st Century? The disciples have their names written on the 12 foundations of the city but they weren't as lucky as those alive at his future coming?

None of that makes any sense, you realize...right? Just wishful thinking on your part and twisting of scripture.
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Old 10-09-2009, 01:22 PM
 
Location: Indianapolis
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You guys know that Heaven, where God is, is not of the material? It's all spiritual so those dimensions are meaningless.

It's useless katjonjj. I don't think he grasps it.
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Old 10-09-2009, 02:47 PM
 
Location: UPSTATE SC
1,405 posts, read 2,108,420 times
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I'm spending some time researching the "size" of heaven. Thank you for your responses, as it has helped in how and where to seek some of the information.

I had a conversation with a pastor here on the car rider line for school pick up today . . . .

I do believe it is a physical place, and respectfully disagree with Reverend, because it literally has been given measurement, and description as some of the above poster's presented.

I am not well informed enough, to comment on what rings true to me yet, but thank you for all the replies.

There was another reason for asking it . . .as one poster, I forget who know, referenced . . . the number of people born, yet to be born and alive today . . . . in comparison to the size of it. Thanks.
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Old 10-09-2009, 02:54 PM
 
20,292 posts, read 15,633,754 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
NIVİThe city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia in length, and as wide and high as it is long.
NASİThe city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as the width; and he measured the city with the rod, fifteen hundred miles; its length and width and height are equal.
ISVİThe city was square: its length was the same as its width. He measured the city with his rod, and it was about 1,374 miles long. Its length, width, and height were the same.
GWTİThe city was square. It was as wide as it was long. He measured the city with the stick. It was 12,000 stadia long. Its length, width, and height were the same.
KJV And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
AKJ And the city lies foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
ASV And the city lieth foursquare, and the length thereof is as great as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs: the length and the breadth and the height thereof are equal.
BBE And the town is square, as wide as it is long; and he took the measure of the town with the rod, one thousand and five hundred miles: it is equally long and wide and high.
DRB And the city lieth in a foursquare, and the length thereof is as great as the breadth: and he measured the city with the golden reed for twelve thousand furlongs, and the length and the height and the breadth thereof are equal.
DBY And the city lies four-square, and its length is as much as the breadth. And he measured the city with the reed twelve thousand stadia: the length and the breadth and height of it are equal.
ERV And the city lieth foursquare, and the length thereof is as great as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs: the length and the breadth and the height thereof are equal.
WBS And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the hight of it are equal.
WEY The plan of the city is a square, the length being the same as the breadth; and he measured the city furlong by furlong, with his measuring rod--it is twelve hundred miles long, and the length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
WEB The city lies foursquare, and its length is as great as its breadth. He measured the city with the reed, Twelve thousand twelve stadia. Its length, breadth, and height are equal.
YLT and the city lieth square, and the length of it is as great as the breadth; and he did measure the city with the reed -- furlongs twelve thousand; the length, and the breadth, and the height, of it are equal;

The words translated in the bold are:
dōdeka: two and ten, i.e. twelve
chiliadōn: one thousand (as opposed to "chiliad" which is "thousand".
stadiōn:a stadium (a Gr. measure of length), by impl. a racecourse, distance, race, mile,...

So... it is two and ten one thousands distances..that's 12 not 15!
1200 or 12000 miles no 5 to be found in there~

12 gates, 12 foundations, 12 angels, 12 tribes of Israel, 12 apostles of the Lamb.. All found in Rev. 21... all the same word dōdeka!

Please don't tell me it is 15 because there is no way to remotely convert ten and two to 15... you are in error. The BBE, NAS, and ISV are also incorrect. How they came upon those numbers is mind boggling. Perhaps you can enlighten me.

Also, you are under the impression that those "who remain at his coming" are the only ones allowed in the New Jerusalem? The population of Christianity in the world (alive today) is approx. 2.1 billion...how many will reside in the New Jerusalem? Do you have scripture for that?

My next question, logically, is: How do you determine that what you (who is alive at his coming) are more deserving of entry into the New Jerusalem than the disciples and followers in the 1st Century? The disciples have their names written on the 12 foundations of the city but they weren't as lucky as those alive at his future coming?

None of that makes any sense, you realize...right? Just wishful thinking on your part and twisting of scripture.


All church age believers, both who are alive at His coming and those who have died and are in Heaven are a part of the Church and will inhabit the New Jerusalem. Nowhere did I say that only those who are alive at His coming go into the New Jerusalem. You continually invent things in your mind and then present it as though someone else said it and then you debate against it.

A furlong is said to be 1/8 of a mile, and 12000 furlongs converts to roughly 1500 statute miles. I'll take their word for it.
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