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Old 10-10-2009, 04:44 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 2,958,452 times
Reputation: 221

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Interesting point of view. Kick them out of the company of believers so they might eventually learn to believe PROPERLY . . . is that "helping them to come unto Christ?"I'm curious . . . does the congregation single you out and discuss your specific sins publicly or spend entire sermons publicly excoriating you about them? If so . . . is this kind of public humiliation effective in encouraging attendance and "helping people come unto Christ and stay there?"
I doubt that sexual sin is a matter of belief. I think most people who have been exposed to Christianity already know that sexual relations outside of marriage is sinful in the eyes of God. (Again, regardless of the gender of the people involved, as I see it.)

When it is known that a member of his flock is involved in sexual sin, I think it is the responsibility of the leader of any Christian flock to speak in confidence to that member, teach the principles of repentance (which include forsaking the sin), then allow some time to pass.

If the member chooses not to repent, then the pastor/priest/minister in my opinion then needs to take some action out of love and concern not only for the sinner but also for the rest of the flock who may be unduly influenced by that member. Excommunication from the records of the church can be a loving act of kindness to stress to the sinner the seriousness of his/her behavior in the eyes of God.

In the LDS Church, excommunicated persons are still allowed to attend church meetings, just not to teach Sunday School etc. for a period of time. Often they receive if anything even added kindness and love from the members of their congregation who usually only find out by a brief one-time announcement from the bishop after the excommunication has taken place of that person's problem. After an appropriate period of time and evidence that the sin has been forsaken, the person is invited to be baptized again and renew their membership as before, cleansed from the sins of their past, a new life beckoning them on towards their eternal goal.

Seems the kind and responsible thing for a CHURCH to do about a moral issue in my opinion.
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Old 10-10-2009, 04:48 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,494,835 times
Reputation: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by vicket View Post
How on earth can loving and welcoming gays not be scriptural? .
There is nothing wrong with reaching out to sinners, (Including the Gays) with the message that they need to repent and change.

However the problem comes when you start to not believe they need to repent.
That is where you find the church moving toward.
The many denominational churches that are seeing a huge dip in their memberships also have turned their back on the clear bible teachings against being Gay.

American Liberal churches like the Anglicans and the Lutherans are dieing.
About the only truly growing American churches anymore are the most conservative in teachings.

The old saying is still true,
Love the sinner, but hate the sin.
Being Gay is a sin, but via repentance there is forgiveness.
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Old 10-10-2009, 04:49 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,472,857 times
Reputation: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
I guess I was thinking more along the lines of keeping to ourselves all the diversity of conflicting beliefs and understandings that come with the concepts "God" and "salvation" and just focussing for a while on communications about developing and maintaining an individual relationship with Jesus Christ, and a working acquaintance with the things he asks us to physically DO in this lifetime. (Random acts of kindness for example.)

Would that be viable? Would that help move Christians on this board in the direction of a more harmonious relationship with each other? Any other suggestions to show doubters that it is possible for Christians of many denominations to present themselves in a more loving Christlike manner?

Or is constant conflict the vital fuel that feeds discussion boards and all is well, with the help of a few good moderators?
No...we are not all Christian and to do what you ask is blurring the line of what is Christianity. I understand why you don't like what's happening and neither do I but this is the best way, as long as we are civil to one another, not becoming physically or mentally abusive we can agree to disagree and let the world see there are divisions. The alternative is what killed Christianity in Europe.
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Old 10-10-2009, 04:55 PM
 
37,649 posts, read 25,348,785 times
Reputation: 5865
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
There was a "bible" when Jesus walked the earth, Jesus often read from the "scriptures". He refered to "the scriptures". The "bible" was called scriptures and were in scroll form.
It consisted of the 5 books of Moses, the prophets, and the Psalms.

Christians who believe in Jesus, the Son of God, find him in the "scriptures", the OT and the NT...a.k.a the Bible.
Nowhere else.
Jesus is the LIVING WORD of God . . . not some moldy old book . . . and He is within us ALL as the Holy Spirit to help us discern what God has "written in our hearts." The scriptures are USEFUL for instruction and learning about the existence of Jesus and how He fulfilled the OT prophecies about Him even 2000+ years later. 2 Corinthians 3: 2-6 (King James Version)

2Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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Old 10-10-2009, 04:59 PM
 
Location: Houston, TX
1,418 posts, read 1,815,189 times
Reputation: 1491
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
There is nothing wrong with reaching out to sinners, (Including the Gays) with the message that they need to repent and change.

However the problem comes when you start to not believe they need to repent.
That is where you find the church moving toward.
The many denominational churches that are seeing a huge dip in their memberships also have turned their back on the clear bible teachings against being Gay.

American Liberal churches like the Anglicans and the Lutherans are dieing.
About the only truly growing American churches anymore are the most conservative in teachings.

The old saying is still true,
Love the sinner, but hate the sin.
Being Gay is a sin, but via repentance there is forgiveness.
I would agree with you, to an extent...except I saw nothing in your previous posts about churches allowing liars or gluttons or judgemental or prideful persons to lead their churches... you only single out gays.
We ALL have sin. We ALL struggle with it. Only God can judge who is sincere in their search for him.
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Old 10-10-2009, 05:04 PM
 
Location: Houston, TX
1,418 posts, read 1,815,189 times
Reputation: 1491
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Do you realize you are what you're calling yourself?

Read what Jesus thought of those who opposed him.... "brood of vipers", "hyprocrates". With a little more careful reading, Jesus was in the company of prostitutes who were "former"...those who left their sinful life style.

Some do take it too far, but that isn't near the majority
Some churches teach that my "brood of vipers" is worse than your "brood of vipers"...I don't think God thinks so.
(Just my humble opinion...)
(and as an aside- thanks, Mystic.)
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Old 10-10-2009, 05:08 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,494,835 times
Reputation: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by vicket View Post
I would agree with you, to an extent...except I saw nothing in your previous posts about churches allowing liars or gluttons or judgemental or prideful persons to lead their churches... you only single out gays.
Consider:

my Lutheran church has just passed some type of new rule that allows openly Gay preachers to remain in office.
In fact its worse that that too, to even question the position of the church now on the Gays gets you in trouble.

Now do we Lutherans have a new rule allowing currently active child molesters to be preachers?...NO!

Do we have a rule allowing currently active and unrepentant sinners, (thieves, rapists, murders) to stay in leadership positions?...no!

It only the gays Vicket...

Only the Gays have twisted their way into getting a whole Christian denomination to turn it's back on the Bible in this manner.

Thus the need to have good Christians like myself who are also Lutheran to stand up and tell the greater church body that something evil has come to us Lutherans.,.... known as "Liberalism"
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Old 10-10-2009, 05:43 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,845,798 times
Reputation: 1302
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
There is nothing wrong with reaching out to sinners, (Including the Gays) with the message that they need to repent and change.

However the problem comes when you start to not believe they need to repent.
That is where you find the church moving toward.
The many denominational churches that are seeing a huge dip in their memberships also have turned their back on the clear bible teachings against being Gay.

American Liberal churches like the Anglicans and the Lutherans are dieing.
About the only truly growing American churches anymore are the most conservative in teachings.

The old saying is still true,
Love the sinner, but hate the sin.
Being Gay is a sin, but via repentance there is forgiveness.
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Old 10-10-2009, 06:32 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,215,590 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
Where have all the Christians gone?

A recent article on FoxNews.com revealed the following:


1. The number of Christians has declined 12% since 1990, and is now 76%, the lowest percentage in American history.

2. Non-Christians are not particularly atheist. That number hasn’t budged and stands at less than 1 percent. (Agnostics are similarly less than 1 percent.) Instead, these individuals have a belief in God but no interest in organized religion, or they believe in a personal God but not in a formal faith tradition.

3. Americans are interested in God, but they don’t think existing institutions are helping them draw closer to God.


The writer of that article concludes:

"Today, the rise of disaffection is so powerful that different denominations need to band together to find a shared language of God that can move beyond the fading divisions of the past and begin moving toward a partnership of different-but-equal traditions.

Or risk becoming Europe, where religion is fast becoming an afterthought."

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2009/09/25/bruce-feiler-christians-americans-gone/



It is my personal opinion, from having participated on many discussion boards, that one of the major reasons so many Christians are becoming disenchanted with organized religion is because many ministers of religion, instead of teaching the beautiful uplifting things that come from living the Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught in their particular denomination, are teaching about 'evils' that are to be found in the beliefs and religious practices of other religious denominations. And in that manner paid professional pastors and priests are creating much of the sometimes vicious rivalry among otherwise sincere good-living followers of Jesus Christ who love and trust their Savior but have been taught to believe that only their own particular package of biblical interpretions and understandings will get you to heaven.



1. Do you think it likely that a significant number of people are leaving organized Christian denominations because their pastors and leaders are not helping them move towards a satisfying personal relationship with God?


2. Do you think it likely that a significant number of people are leaving organized Christian denominations because of bickering about biblical interpretions and understandings?


3. What can be done to lessen the interdenominational bickering and bigotry that is so commonly expressed on religion discussion boards?


4. What can clergy of all denominations do to help members of their flock draw closer to God?
People are simply waking up to the control measures of organized religion and institutionalized Christianity which are used to threaten and control through fear. People are beginning to see the wolf in sheep's clothing and are abandoning the the sinking ship of the false traditions of men.
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Old 10-10-2009, 06:44 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,696,796 times
Reputation: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
1. No.

2. Enjoy the board as is, it's not likely to change. City Data is the most civil religion board I have found anywhere yet. And we don't see here much of the sometimes biased micromanagement from volunteer moderators that often drives users away from other religion boards in droves. I like it here...

Agreed.
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