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Old 10-12-2009, 10:07 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,268,466 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
R.L. Wing
Isn't he a Taoist....now now...crossing your thoughts with another belief is a no no....

Quote:
Too many of Jesus' self-appointed apostles today foolishly place the emphasis on retaining and promoting particular beliefs. What is worse, they often focus on minuscule differences of opinion and escalate them into major concerns.
Prophecy is done. Finished. The word of God was completed in the first century and there is no adding to it. What exists now, in this life and fleshly world will always exist. Death, sin, pain, murder, happiness. love, mercy forgiveness and so on. What is to come, depends on your faith system. If it is in Jesus, and you are earnest about your walk, then you will be given a crown. If it is not, you will be cast into the lake of fire, where death, hades, satan, the false prophet, the apostste Jews, pagans and so forth are. You will never understnad the will and purpose of God's overall plan except that He is continuously drawing mankind to Him. There will be many, many people destined for destruction...but there will be many, many, and ever more increasing peple destined for eternal life.

Keep the New Age doctrines out of this. They are nothing more than additions to the word of God. False, according to the scripture.
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Old 10-12-2009, 10:11 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
The part I am trying to understand here is the no existence of Hell doctrine. Rev 19, 20, and 21 are clear cut from the vantage point of the ressurecctiion of the dead and, the redemption of the saints, OT and the 1st century prior to that event, the overall covenant in Christ from His death to the Parousia (Rev 20), and Rev 21 the passing of the Old Covenant and the establishment of the New, in parallel with the finalizing of the New Heaven, in which we all who are in Christ will be destined after this life. Hell...the abode where the false prophet, beast and Satan himself are thrown...that is the Lake of Fire..is precisely the abode where ressurection of those seen in Rev 20:13-15 are, including, as I said above, wher Hades and the power of death are cast.

All full preterists I know all agree with this doctrine...Sam Frost, William Bell, Dr. Birks and many other top scholars of the view. Most Full Preterists that I am in conversation daily, as the ones I stated above, were all Calvinists at onepoint, and still adhere to the five points.

What say you all Preterist Ur'ers?
Actually there is sulfur added to the Lake of Fire that satan, the false prophet, and the beast are thrown into..which indicates a purifying (brimstone).

An the lake of fire cannot be confused with Hell because Hell is thrown into the lake of fire so they cannot be the same thing.

I don't know the five points perhaps you can lay them out.
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Old 10-12-2009, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Actually there is sulfur added to the Lake of Fire that satan, the false prophet, and the beast are thrown into..which indicates a purifying (brimstone).
Sulfur....? Rev 20..nothing there about sulfur

Quote:
And the lake of fire cannot be confused with Hell because Hell is thrown into the lake of fire so they cannot be the same thing.
Hades is not Hell. Hades is Sheol. Sheol was destroyed. All souls went to Sheol. All souls were raised from Sheol and judged in the first century.
The New Heaven was created. The Lake of Fire is where those that were not written in the book of life went, along with the false prophet, Beast, Satan, Death and Hades.

Quote:
I don't know the five points perhaps you can lay them out.
Sure thing....

Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints

Last edited by sciotamicks; 10-12-2009 at 10:39 PM..
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Old 10-12-2009, 10:52 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Sulfur....? Rev 20..nothing there about sulfur

Hades is not Hell. Hades is Sheol. Sheol was destroyed. All souls went to Sheol. All souls were raised from Sheol and judged in the first century.
Then how do you say the lake of fire is hell? Every word "hell" in the bible (NT) is sheol, hades, tartaroos, or the valley of Hinnom... so how do you connect your idea of the lake of fire being called "hell?"

I see the whole...lake of fire thing being burning in hell... but no where in the bible does it say that people in the lake of fire are tortured for eternity except the lake of fire with brimstone (sulfur) which is purifying and distinguished

LOOK:
REV. 10:20 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

In the Greek:
Brimstone is theiou or neuter of theios (in its original sense of flashing); sulphur -- brimstone.

Fire is Fire
Lake is Lake
for ever and ever : ages of ages.

Again.. do a bible search for uses of sulfur.

Quote:
The New Heaven was created. The Lake of Fire is where those that were not written in the book of life went, along with the false prophet, Beast, Satan, Death and Hades.
Now verse 14,15 show that death and hades are thrown into the same lake of fire (without the brimstone) as those not written in the book of life.

Now hades and death are obviously not beings that can be tortured... and it doesn't say they are tortured. The false prophet et al. are tortured that is for sure but they are purified as well so that must mean it cannot be for ever and ever.



Quote:
Sure thing....

T[SIZE=2]otal Depravity [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints [/SIZE]
I guess I missed how that applied to what Preterists teach about the second coming... sounds like an ER position. How does that apply to the second coming... I am not really studied in the legistics of preterist "doctrine" for lack of a better word.
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Old 10-12-2009, 11:26 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Then how do you say the lake of fire is hell? Every word "hell" in the bible (NT) is sheol, hades, tartaroos, or the valley of Hinnom... so how do you connect your idea of the lake of fire being called "hell?
I see the whole...lake of fire thing being burning in hell... but no where in the bible does it say that people in the lake of fire are tortured for eternity except the lake of fire with brimstone (sulfur) which is purifying and distinguished
Hell...lake of fire...geena...these are just figurative description of the destination of the wicked. Picking apart each and every word without applying it to the entire context of its theme is eisegesis. this is what you are doing katonjj.

The same 846 2532 shall drink 4095 of 1537 the wine 3631 of the wrath 2372 of God 2316, which 3588 is poured out 2767 without mixture 194 into 1722 the cup 4221 of his 846 indignation 3709; and 2532 he shall be tormented 928 with 1722 fire 4442 and 2532 brimstone 2303 in the presence 1799 of the holy 40 angels 32, and 2532 in the presence 1799 of the Lamb 721:

Quote:
REV. 10:20 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Are you saying the Devil will be redeemed as well? The purifying effect is not to mean that inevitably, they will be pure; but it amends the fact that they will be made desolate..a waste land such as:

Deut 29:23 [And that] the whole land thereof [is] brimstone, and salt, [and] burning, [that] it is not sown, nor beareth, nor any grass groweth therein, like the overthrow of Sodom, and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the LORD overthrew in his anger, and in his wrath:

Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.

Brimstone is not used merely for cruelty or wrath; but is used to purify and cleanse the land from evil and the decay of sin, as we see countless times in the Old Testament. The issue here is that you are taking the word itself, its meaning a placing it into the paradigm you present, when in fact all it is being used for is to describe the severity of it, the toture it entails, and the essence of its nature. To burn.
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Old 10-13-2009, 12:13 AM
 
23,018 posts, read 11,114,012 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
The above underlined is nowhere in scripture and is pure metaphysical garbage when it comes to the God breathed, Holy Spirit ordained first century apostles and disciples. What you present is not olny heretical to the Word of God, it is down right a blatant lie to cover the will of the flesh. Sorry brother, but you tell me one place in scripture where it defends the above?
The recordings were made by savage carnal minds with virtually no knowledge and they were trying to interpret "inspirations" (NOT dictation) using their inadequate cognitive assets to describe and explain what God was trying to tell humankind. This is true of ALL the scriptures . . . and it was far worse for the OT scriptures than the NT. ANYONE reading them AS IF they were written by modern minds with modern meanings and understanding for modern adults to follow is producing heresy . . . and has been for 2000+ years. There is no way God wants us to live by the same cultural rules or with the same primitive fears that were necessary just to get the savages to begin to develop control over their urges . . . let alone have any real self-control.

The scriptures are for spiritual edification . . . NOT historical, scientific, carnal or worldy . . . and they cannot simply be read as if they were modern literature in total ignorance of their original audiences or their capabilities, their languages, their idioms, their cultural contexts, their concepts of God and spirits, their knowledge of the world, the events that were driving their perceptions, expectations, and desires, their myths and legends, their superstitions, and their carnality. The only way you can accept them as inerrant recorders of God' inspirations is to forsake ALL knowledge of human frailties and flaws because you don't believe in a real God who adheres to His own "laws" of physics, etc. and MUST be a "supernatural" magic sky-man. I do not denigrate God like that. I KNOW He produced a rational universe and expects us to understand it and learn the truth about Him and our relationship to Him . . . not cower in a fear-driven mock "love" of a primitive monster God described in the recordings (AS READ LITERALLY NOT SPIRITUALLY) using the primitive minds and understandings of its authors.
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Old 10-13-2009, 12:20 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,268,466 times
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Ok Mystic I get it.....the scriptures are written by savage, God breathed saints. I agree is much to learn about God's immaculate creation, all around us.
But to me, He is not a magic sky man. He is my Lord. I love Him.
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Old 10-13-2009, 12:38 AM
 
23,018 posts, read 11,114,012 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Ok Mystic I get it.....the scriptures are written by savage, God breathed saints. I agree is much to learn about God's immaculate creation, all around us.
But to me, He is not a magic sky man. He is my Lord. I love Him.
I love Jesus more than my life. That is why I cannot continue to let His love for us be maligned by the heinous beliefs about the nature of God spawned by the savage stories of Jehovah under the lame excuse that God works in mysterious ways. God's truth is in Scripture, sciotamicks . . . but its carnal descriptions and content cannot just be read . . . they must be interpreted for their spiritual content and import with a deeper knowledge and understanding . . . all in the faith that God knew we would eventually learn enough to question the carnal "milk" and search for the "solid food." Unfortunately . . . men had other plans for His word . . . which required that ignorance be maintained (even praised) and that prevented any real understanding from developing. This required the repression and eradication of any that did try to emerge as heresy.
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Old 10-13-2009, 01:18 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Hell...lake of fire...geena...these are just figurative description of the destination of the wicked. Picking apart each and every word without applying it to the entire context of its theme is eisegesis. this is what you are doing katonjj.
And I can say the same for you lumping together hell, lake of fire, gehenna... Gehenna is not a fiery place... in fact it is nothing short of paradise right now. The valley of Hinnom has history and it was to burn criminals and garbage because the valley was used by pagans to sacrifice children to their Gods by fire.... this indicates a WRONG thing.... the valley is the epitomy of all that is wrong with false Gods.. This has nothing to do with punishment in and of itself! Besides the fact that the lake of fire and the lake of fire with brimstone are two different types as shown in proper exegesis...

Quote:
The same 846 2532 shall drink 4095 of 1537 the wine 3631 of the wrath 2372 of God 2316, which 3588 is poured out 2767 without mixture 194 into 1722 the cup 4221 of his 846 indignation 3709; and 2532 he shall be tormented 928 with 1722 fire 4442 and 2532 brimstone 2303 in the presence 1799 of the holy 40 angels 32, and 2532 in the presence 1799 of the Lamb 721:
If this is happening in the presence of the Lamb.... how can the Lamb be in the lake of fire? Also, if you have read preterism at all you would know that the fire and brimstone judgment came upon those who were trapped in the city of Jerusalem at it's seige... there is absolutely no connection here to the Lake of fire.... Jesus, the Lamb, is there with them as they are tormented...

Quote:
Are you saying the Devil will be redeemed as well? The purifying effect is not to mean that inevitably, they will be pure; but it amends the fact that they will be made desolate..a waste land such as:
Well first I should say that it is the adversary that is the devil and the devil does not really exist outside of being the adversary. I am my own adversary in most cases as are all humans so I cannot say that the DEVIL will be redeemed but I can say that the adversary will be redeemed... the enemy in us of our desire to do harm to ourselves.

Quote:
Deut 29:23 [And that] the whole land thereof [is] brimstone, and salt, [and] burning, [that] it is not sown, nor beareth, nor any grass groweth therein, like the overthrow of Sodom, and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the LORD overthrew in his anger, and in his wrath:
Everlasting or corrective?

Quote:
Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Again everlasting without purpose or corrective in purpose?

Quote:
Brimstone is not used merely for cruelty or wrath; but is used to purify and cleanse the land from evil and the decay of sin, as we see countless times in the Old Testament. The issue here is that you are taking the word itself, its meaning a placing it into the paradigm you present, when in fact all it is being used for is to describe the severity of it, the toture it entails, and the essence of its nature. To burn.
I don't think brimstone is used for cruelty or wrath but it was used all around the valley of Hinnom to purify the air. How do you reconcile this then about brimstone?

Isa. 30:33 Topheth has long been prepared; it has been made ready for the king. Its fire pit has been made deep and wide, with an abundance of fire and wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of burning sulfur, sets it ablaze.

Remember Topheth?

2 Kings 23:10 He also defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter pass through the fire for Molech.

Is the breath of the Lord also the lake of fire? and Hell? or does the breath (life, spirit, blast) indicate that God is purifying what it sets ablaze?

It is God that sends and creates the fire and brimstone.

Genesis 19:24 Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven,

Jeremiah 19:6 therefore, behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when this place will no longer be called Topheth or the valley of Ben-hinnom, but rather the valley of Slaughter.

So there is no reason to use Gehenna (Valley of Hinnom) to mean "hell" but it was an abomination to God used by pagans to burn children. It was the place of HUMAN SLAUGHTER OF HUMANS... and God burned it with fire and brimstone from his breath...

How is it then that you say the lake of fire with brimstone is not from God for the Good of the people (or things) thrown into the lake of fire?

I would define the lake of fire as God's fire and brimstone from his breath which we know is God's spirit. God's spirit is like a double-edged sword and..."For with fire and with his sword the LORD will execute judgment upon all men, and many will be those slain by the LORD." (Isa. 66:16)

There is always a purpose to the fire and brimstone and that was to purify... God will not stay angry for ever and ever....

Isa. 57:16 I will not accuse forever, nor will I always be angry, for then the spirit of man would grow faint before me--the breath of man that I have created.

If God is angry for ever and ever (lake of fire torture forever) then he says it is as if the spirit of man fades away... that very man HE created is for naught... man will be reconciled ... God's wrath (if you can call it that) is never.. never... for ever! LOL and is always....always for correction and reconcilliation!
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Old 10-13-2009, 03:17 AM
 
Location: Redding, Ca
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I believe His message was, "repent" only so much they had to believe since they did not have the commandments or the bible. The people had a conscience and they believed in a God, they knew they were doing wrong and yet God gave them every chance to repent by going with Noah and his famility in the ark unfortunately none believed nor repented and on that last day God closed the door of the ark.

I don't know if there was a gap between Noah and Abraham, again we see God in the Tower of Babel, as the people tried to get closer to God and God punished them.
I asked the question in order to establish the fact that each individual was gifted with a conscience,but there was nothing to awaken the consciousness except for God speaking by His spirit, as He did to Noah.

The same was done to Abraham as a similitude of Noah.

But what I want to point out is that apart from the ones God spoke to, the rest of humanity where clueless as to who, or what God really was, yet, they all had a consciences that insinuated that there was something spiritual.

A god, a spirit or something in the spiritual that they could not identify with because there simply was no knowledge of God, other than to the ones, God spoke to.

So humanity was left to their own imaginations throughout human history, for there was a god of many sorts, and for every imagination of a god like, a human could dream up.

I also want to point out that because of this lack of knowledge (The withholding of the tree of life from humanity) that humanity was not faulted, necessitating a redemption process initiated by God Himself.

That initiation process was done in due time as the tree that was withheld, (tree of life) was readied to be introduced as the Son of God with life.

So the question arises, if Jesus is the tree of life that was withheld back in the garden, what became the state of the departed souls prior to the coming of the Son of God and reconciling the world back to the Father?

Did they all go to hell? Well, yes, if you can understand that hell was a name for a prison holding the departed souls not yet redeemed by the blood of the lamb.

Did Jesus go there to? Yes, definitely, to announce the good news to them.

Had Jesus not taken the sins of the world on Himself, He would not have gone to hell, but by necessity, He had to in order to free up those souls to whom God withheld life from.

Hence, hell does no longer exist, for there is redemption for the human soul, where as before, there as not.

All the folks who innocently worshiped gods of there own making, did so because they had no knowledge of who or what a god was.

The closed door of the ark represented as a similitude, heaven's door shut to humanity, humanity being as the waters of the flood.

Meaning that all humanity was shut out, except for the redeemer of humanity represented by similitude Noah as a similitude of Christ.

So again, I quote Hosea 12:10 to show that all the notable stories of the bible having to do with God's selection of a servant to save, are used in similitude, and multiplied visions.

If any of you like to study numbers in scripture, you'll find a treasure of knowledge used by God in numbers.

Take for example the verse I gave you.

The number 12 ( an earthly organizational number) is used by God in similitude's ad multiplied visions, to give us the heavenly number 10 (Priestly number)

Similitude's are like Noah, Abraham as a type of Christ.
Multiplied visions are like the 12 Apostles multiplied by 12, equaling 144 multiplied by 1,000 making the total, 144,000.

Ref: Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

You see, it is not the descriptions of the stories, the thousands upon thousands that matters, but the spiritual message (10)given over the earthly stories (12).

If you can begin to see what I mean, you will see through the glass darkly, and see the clearer picture of God's work in loving His creation.

Everything else stands as a foundation for our exploration, into the width and dept of the word of God.

The one sure thing is, that God in Christ opened all the doors, save for us to seek tem out.

Blessings, AJ
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