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Old 10-10-2009, 01:52 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Let me help...if I can LOL

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
I disagree, the MANY are defined here:
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

The MANY are all men and the same MANY in the later half of the statement, and the MANY are defined earlier in verse 12.
MANY=ALL

How many were made sinners? ALL
How many will be made righteous? ALL

Quote:
Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

This tells us that by Christ's obedience, He is the obedient one here....and the one disobedient is Adam.

So through Adam...we are all sinners
Through Christ, we, so might grace reign, we are made righteous.

kai houtō basileuō - even so might grace reign

This is a conditional phrase in Greek allowing the possibilty of an regenration of the spirit in this life, not the afterlife, or before judgement, as UR claims such. The choice is here in this life, and when you die, no more choices, or should I say, His drawing of men to Him.
Read through Hebrews 8. It says Christ is the high priest of the New Covenant (which makes the Old fade away) and Christ sacrificed once for all so that their sins are remembered no more.

There is no condition on it. You want MANY not to mean ALL when it clearly does mean ALL. Why is it not the same word as in verse 12? I don't know, perhaps the speaker was simply being vague or generalizing the concept of ALL he clearly defined before.

Quote:
The whole purpose of salvation was for this life, to redeem the sin of Adam unto us, so that we can be cleansed for the presence in the Lord.
Back to my car wash theory. The blood of Christ purifies ALL men.. whether you wanna do it now or later, it is done through his ONE TIME sacrifice.

Hebrews 8.... very informative.
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Old 10-10-2009, 02:27 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,294,852 times
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katonjj,

I never argued the clause of many, why are you pressing it?

We can get technical about 'the many', but I prefer to stay clear, as it is conditional on the Jews only, not the Gentiles, hence what Paul is implying to the Romans......70 weeks etc.

You state:

Quote:
It says Christ is the high priest of the New Covenant (which makes the Old fade away) and Christ sacrificed once for all so that their sins are remembered no more.
Christ is the High Priest, the order of Melchezedeck.....this is plain. The text within the last part of the statement above is reverberated throughout the scripture, and is conditional upon the inner circumscision.

Psa 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Psa 110:6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill [the places] with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This is covenant of Christ...the New and Confirmed Covenant in Him.

Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, [then] the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever

Jer 3:23 Truly in vain [is salvation hoped for] from the hills, [and from] the multitude of mountains: truly in the LORD our God [is] the salvation of Israel.

You must be in Christ for your sin to be remembered no more. Otherwise, you are condemened.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

Heb 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people

This is only in regards to Israel, the New covenant, Christians, the New Jerusalem.
In order to be part of that New Jerusalem, you must accept Christ as your saviour..in this life.

No other.
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Old 10-10-2009, 02:32 PM
 
2,945 posts, read 4,778,440 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
This is a conditional phrase in Greek allowing the possibilty of an regenration of the spirit in this life, not the afterlife, or before judgement, as UR claims such. The choice is here in this life, and when you die, no more choices, or should I say, His drawing of men to Him.
Let`s look at real life experiences and relate what we believe to real people and real events. If a 12 yr old girl dies in an accident but never said said the right prayer or believed the right thing she is burning in constant fire? Or perhaps you believe she just perishes, I`m not sure. But another person can live like the devil his entire life,murder,rape,steal,whatever, but make a deathbed confession at the age of 80 and have everlasting bliss walking and talking with Jesus and the saints forevermore? Do you believe that is good news to tell the mother of that child? Perhaps that man that made a deathbed confession was the person that raped and murdered her child. He goes to heaven and she doesn`t? These kinds of things happen in real life. These are real people. Teaching to that mother that your belief allows such thing is unthinkable. But when you break down the teaching of ET, let`s be honest...that kind of thing happens. That is what your belief allows for! I remember when michael jackson died,a lot of the ET`ers were talking about how great he was! Yes, in a wordly way he had a talent for singing and dancing. But they didn`t want to talk about the way he lived his life. All of a sudden it didn`t seem to matter where he was spending eternity but how well he could sing and dance. Then excuses started being made for him and his lifestyle. You could place any number of entertainers or athletes or friends and family members in place of michael jackson I`m just using him as an example because it wasn`t that long ago and I just remember threads being made about how great he was but the silence about the way he lived his life was deafening on a christian message board. Why is that? Because the people who loved jackson`s music and grew up listening to him can`t bear the thought of him screaming in agony at this very moment in literal flames. You see, it is easy to talk about a literal lake of fire and never ending torture when you distance yourself from the people you want to place in there.Let me say, I don`t believe for one second that michael jackson or anyone else is being burned alive right now. I`m just using him as an example to make a point of how easy it is to believe in Et and talk about throwing people in there when they are unknowing third parties but it`s quite another story when it`s real life people that we know and love. Maybe you don`t believe in Et but my point is for those that do. I just wish the people that believed this lie would think about what they are teaching. Put real names,faces, and situations t oyour belief. This is the God you believe in? It`s easy to talk about judgement and justice when you are only throwing the hitlers,stalins,and the like in there. It`s another when you throw everyday normal people including children,yes 11,12,13 yr old children, in there. They are real children and grandchildren that never really lived their life, but yet are burning in a literal pit fire,not for 1 year or 100 years,or 1000 years,or 1000,000 years but forever and ever! To believe and preach that God would do such a thing must surely bring joy to satan. That nonsense and lie has done more to bring saddness and sorrow to people and to turn them away from God then anything in the last 1500 years, IMO.
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Old 10-10-2009, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,404,036 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
katonjj,

I never argued the clause of many, why are you pressing it?

We can get technical about 'the many', but I prefer to stay clear, as it is conditional on the Jews only, not the Gentiles, hence what Paul is implying to the Romans......70 weeks etc.

You state:



Christ is the High Priest, the order of Melchezedeck.....this is plain. The text within the last part of the statement above is reverberated throughout the scripture, and is conditional upon the inner circumscision.
Inner circumcision is not achieved through anything you do..

Romans 2:29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

Deuteronomy 30:6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

If God does the saving and God does the circumcision.. what is left to do for salvation that man must do?

2 Corinthians 10:18 For it is not he who commends himself that is approved, but he whom the Lord commends.

What again must a person DO to be saved? I see it all being done regardless of what the person does.

Quote:
Psa 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Psa 110:6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill [the places] with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This is covenant of Christ...the New and Confirmed Covenant in Him.

Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, [then] the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever

Jer 3:23 Truly in vain [is salvation hoped for] from the hills, [and from] the multitude of mountains: truly in the LORD our God [is] the salvation of Israel.
So you are saying that the covenant does not extend to the gentiles or are you saying that the covenant is taken away from some?

Psalm 148:6 He has also established them forever and ever; He has made a decree which will not pass away.

I don't think the covenant can be taken away from God so are you saying that he is going to change his mind for some sinners but not others?

Isaiah 54:9 "For this is like the days of Noah to Me, When I swore that the waters of Noah Would not flood the earth again; So I have sworn that I will not be angry with you Nor will I rebuke you.

Laws written on hearts and minds equal no more anger and sins forgiven....

The New Covenant applies to ALL SINNERS

Isaiah 54:10 "For the mountains may be removed and the hills may shake, But My lovingkindness will not be removed from you, And My covenant of peace will not be shaken," Says the LORD who has compassion on you.

The covenant cannot be broken or changed by men. Christ sacrificed himself as High Priest ONCE not many like the old covenant.

Jer. 33:20-21 "This is what the LORD says: 'If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night no longer come at their appointed time, then my covenant with David my servant--and my covenant with the Levites who are priests ministering before me--can be broken and David will no longer have a descendant to reign on his throne."

Jesus is not the true savior of any if the covenant is broken by saying he did not make a ONCE for ALL sacrifice for sin as High Priest.

Quote:
You must be in Christ for your sin to be remembered no more. Otherwise, you are condemened.
All men have sinned, all men are condemned.

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

1 John 4:14 We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Quote:
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

Heb 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people

This is only in regards to Israel, the New covenant, Christians, the New Jerusalem.
In order to be part of that New Jerusalem, you must accept Christ as your saviour..in this life.

No other.
This is in error, as I have shown. It is God who circumcises the heart, it is God who sent his son as a savior of the world, all have sinned, all are condemned.

Jesus came to save the world. If he is not the fulfillment of the New covenant, what is he?

If he did not bring in the New Covenant for all sinners then how do you explain the verses I show that says the new covenant includes freedom from sin for everyone?
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Old 10-10-2009, 03:04 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,404,036 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
Let`s look at real life experiences and relate what we believe to real people and real events. If a 12 yr old girl dies in an accident but never said said the right prayer or believed the right thing she is burning in constant fire? Or perhaps you believe she just perishes, I`m not sure. But another person can live like the devil his entire life,murder,rape,steal,whatever, but make a deathbed confession at the age of 80 and have everlasting bliss walking and talking with Jesus and the saints forevermore? Do you believe that is good news to tell the mother of that child? Perhaps that man that made a deathbed confession was the person that raped and murdered her child. He goes to heaven and she doesn`t? These kinds of things happen in real life. These are real people. Teaching to that mother that your belief allows such thing is unthinkable. But when you break down the teaching of ET, let`s be honest...that kind of thing happens. That is what your belief allows for! I remember when michael jackson died,a lot of the ET`ers were talking about how great he was! Yes, in a wordly way he had a talent for singing and dancing. But they didn`t want to talk about the way he lived his life. All of a sudden it didn`t seem to matter where he was spending eternity but how well he could sing and dance. Then excuses started being made for him and his lifestyle. You could place any number of entertainers or athletes or friends and family members in place of michael jackson I`m just using him as an example because it wasn`t that long ago and I just remember threads being made about how great he was but the silence about the way he lived his life was deafening on a christian message board. Why is that? Because the people who loved jackson`s music and grew up listening to him can`t bear the thought of him screaming in agony at this very moment in literal flames. You see, it is easy to talk about a literal lake of fire and never ending torture when you distance yourself from the people you want to place in there.Let me say, I don`t believe for one second that michael jackson or anyone else is being burned alive right now. I`m just using him as an example to make a point of how easy it is to believe in Et and talk about throwing people in there when they are unknowing third parties but it`s quite another story when it`s real life people that we know and love. Maybe you don`t believe in Et but my point is for those that do. I just wish the people that believed this lie would think about what they are teaching. Put real names,faces, and situations t oyour belief. This is the God you believe in? It`s easy to talk about judgement and justice when you are only throwing the hitlers,stalins,and the like in there. It`s another when you throw everyday normal people including children,yes 11,12,13 yr old children, in there. They are real children and grandchildren that never really lived their life, but yet are burning in a literal pit fire,not for 1 year or 100 years,or 1000 years,or 1000,000 years but forever and ever! To believe and preach that God would do such a thing must surely bring joy to satan. That nonsense and lie has done more to bring saddness and sorrow to people and to turn them away from God then anything in the last 1500 years, IMO.
Yes! I agree with your opinion.

Matt. 18:14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.
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Old 10-10-2009, 03:24 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Katonjj,

Luke 16...please read it....your salvation, or your eternal life is based on what you do on this earth and this earth only. You do not get a second chance.

Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.

Regarding what a man must do in his work:

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

We are in a process of sanctification. JJust because we accept Christ, does not make us exempt from sin, and our works are what is judged, as Christians.

Christ died for everyone...all people. However:

Titus 3:4-7 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

James 4:6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: "God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble."

John 6:36 -37 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

You must come to Him and profess your belief...in this life. He regenarates you, but you must profess with your mouth.
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Old 10-10-2009, 03:26 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post

If he did not bring in the New Covenant for all sinners then how do you explain the verses I show that says the new covenant includes freedom from sin for everyone?
What scripure may I ask? I will explain it to you if you provide
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Old 10-10-2009, 03:34 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
.

What again must a person DO to be saved? I see it all being done regardless of what the person does.
Profess his belief in Christ, and turn from his sin.

Quote:
So you are saying that the covenant does not extend to the gentiles or are you saying that the covenant is taken away from some?
No..and that isn't what the scripture says. You, in Christ are part of that city, the New Jerusalem. The bride, which in this flesh of this world, will continue to sin, yet death is abolished. The promise was for all nations, if we believe...if we don't, we are condemned.

Quote:
I don't think the covenant can be taken away from God so are you saying that he is going to change his mind for some sinners but not others?
Sinners, without Christ, will die the second death. Sinners, in Christ, will be judged by their works.

Quote:
The covenant cannot be broken or changed by men. Christ sacrificed himself as High Priest ONCE not many like the old covenant.
Absolutely.

Quote:
All men have sinned, all men are condemned.

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Emphasis...through Him in this world
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Old 10-10-2009, 03:49 PM
 
37,615 posts, read 25,312,999 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
You must come to Him and profess your belief...in this life. He regenarates you, but you must profess with your mouth.
I see . . . you feel it is the specifics that we proclaim we believe with our mouths? But since we all claim with our mouths (or keyboards) to believe in Jesus . . . shouldn't it really be our "fruits". . . what we do when the inner Jesus pricks our conscience and we follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit within as we express our attitudes and behaviors toward others? What exactly do others here think "professes belief in Jesus" . . . is it REALLY what we loudly proclaim to be the one and only absolute truth about Jesus in the public square or internet or church? Why then does it seem (to me at least) to be such "prideful clanging" . . . as a "sounding brass."
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Old 10-10-2009, 04:22 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I see . . . you feel it is the specifics that we proclaim we believe with our mouths? But since we all claim with our mouths (or keyboards) to believe in Jesus . . . shouldn't it really be our "fruits". . . what we do when the inner Jesus pricks our conscience and we follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit within as we express our attitudes and behaviors toward others? What exactly do others here think "professes belief in Jesus" . . . is it REALLY what we loudly proclaim to be the one and only absolute truth about Jesus in the public square or internet or church? Why then does it seem (to me at least) to be such "prideful clanging" . . . as a "sounding brass."

You are correct. Mouths is just a figure of speech...sorry....meaning the outwardly that mirrors the inward. Go into a quiet place, and confess your sins to Christ...there He will hear you, unlike the Pharisses did out in public on the streets...yet their cup of iniquity was full.

2 Cor 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward [man] is being renewed day by day.

This is the process of sanctification.
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