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Old 10-10-2009, 09:14 AM
 
Location: USA
1,895 posts, read 4,052,149 times
Reputation: 1990

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Quote:
Yes, we (the converted) are certainly under grace. Why are we under grace? Is it not because we transgress the law? Without a law, how can anyone be identified as a transgressor?
I didn't say that the law never existed - obviously, it did. But when Jesus came, He fulfilled the law. We are now under grace. The law has been done away with and we are new creatures in Christ, according to Scripture. And no, that doesn't give us license to sin. But a cat does not do, the things that a bird would do. When you have been changed, you are different.

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Let me suggest to you that the primary reason Jesus was so hated and eventually affixed to a Roman gibbet was because he had the courage to 'call a spade a spade.'
Yes, that is true. He did what He was supposed to do. But he offended the hypocritical, outwardly pious - not the people in sin. He was a friend to sinners, because He loved them and had compassion for them. He did not rush up to them and "call a spade a spade," he loved them in spite of their sin. It was the disgusting, hypocritcal religious leaders, without compassion, that He had such disdain for.

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Agreed. What would preclude us from also performing our patriotic duty?
Our patriotic duty is to be law-abiding citizens.

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If I understand you correctly, you are asserting that all Christians should pull back from any involvement in the public square and leave the running of the country to pagans. Is that your assertion?
I'm saying that our time is better spent, doing the work of the Lord. If we did what we were supposed to be doing, we wouldn't have to be involved in politics anyway. The country would not have degenerated into the mess it is today, if Christians had been about the Lord's business. Like when they took prayer out of schools - if every Christian family had immediately pulled their child out of public school that would have been restored. You don't have to involve yourself in politics, per se, to get things done. All we need to do, is live our own lives with integrity. Politics is of the world, it cannot restore order. Only the Lord can do this.

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Sundance, you are just the sort of Christian that pagans and atheists love.
Good! I love them, too......I would have no trouble being in their company, and spending time with them.
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Old 10-10-2009, 10:12 AM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,399,986 times
Reputation: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundance View Post
The law has been done away with and we are new creatures in Christ, according to Scripture. And no, that doesn't give us license to sin. But a cat does not do, the things that a bird would do. When you have been changed, you are different.
You are also on record as stating that "the law does not apply." You assert here that the "law has been done away with."

But, "that doesn't give us license to sin."

If the law does not apply and has been done away with, how is it possible for anyone to sin? Going back to your cat and bird analogy, why would it matter how a cat or bird or anything behaves if all things become lawful?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundance View Post
Yes, that is true. He did what He was supposed to do. But he offended the hypocritical, outwardly pious - not the people in sin. He was a friend to sinners, because He loved them and had compassion for them. He did not rush up to them and "call a spade a spade," he loved them in spite of their sin. It was the disgusting, hypocritcal religious leaders, without compassion, that He had such disdain for.
"He did not rush up to them and "call a spade a spade..."

Jesus asserted truth. This often offended many listeners. If called upon, we as Christians must be prepared to assert truth as well.

Is the practice of homosexuality wrong?

Your assertion here reveals a tendency on your part to make unwarranted assumptions as I have nowhere asserted that Christians are to "rush up" to people in order to 'call a spade a spade.'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundance View Post
Our patriotic duty is to be law-abiding citizens.
May I suggest that there are duties that go beyond simply obeying the law. How about voting for instance? Wouldn't we also have a duty to see that our vote is intelligent, informed and in accord with the Biblical world view?

This is aside from the fact that we are to disobey any secular law that would cause us to transgress God's law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundance View Post
I'm saying that our time is better spent, doing the work of the Lord. If we did what we were supposed to be doing, we wouldn't have to be involved in politics anyway. The country would not have degenerated into the mess it is today, if Christians had been about the Lord's business. Like when they took prayer out of schools - if every Christian family had immediately pulled their child out of public school that would have been restored. You don't have to involve yourself in politics, per se, to get things done. All we need to do, is live our own lives with integrity. Politics is of the world, it cannot restore order. Only the Lord can do this.
In other words, you agree that Christians should pull back from any involvement in the public square and leave the running of the country to the pagans? You believe that this is God's will for us? ...and you have scripture to back this up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundance View Post
Good! I love them, too......I would have no trouble being in their company, and spending time with them.
You know, it is possible to be loved for the wrong reasons.
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Old 10-10-2009, 11:40 AM
 
Location: USA
1,895 posts, read 4,052,149 times
Reputation: 1990
Quote:
You are also on record as stating that "the law does not apply."
Where?

Quote:
You assert here that the "law has been done away with."

But, "that doesn't give us license to sin."

If the law does not apply and has been done away with, how is it possible for anyone to sin?
Don't you know? I think anytime we fall short of what the Lord wants, we are sinning, in the sense that, we missed the mark. It's not our best, I feel He wants our best, in every aspect of our lives. If we do not give it, then I feel that is sinning. Arguing about grace vs. law, I'm not going to play duelling scriptures as it serves no purpose. We all presumably have Bibles here.

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Going back to your cat and bird analogy, why would it matter how a cat or bird or anything behaves if all things become lawful?
Your question makes no sense to me, so I'm not going to answer it. I never said that all things are lawful, I said that Jesus fulfilled the law.

Quote:
Jesus asserted truth. This often offended many listeners. If called upon, we as Christians must be prepared to assert truth as well.
He also asserted LOVE. He said that that is what will set His disciples apart. And if you do not love others, nothing you do matters - even "truth," as defined by you, or your interpretation of scripture.

And what do you mean "if called upon?" What situation would that happen in?

Quote:
Is the practice of homosexuality wrong?
What do you think? Do you think it's wrong? Why do you think there are homosexual people in the world......what is your theory?

Do you think gluttony is wrong? Selfishness, pride.......? Do you think these things are wrong?

Quote:
Your assertion here reveals a tendency on your part to make unwarranted assumptions as I have nowhere asserted that Christians are to "rush up" to people in order to 'call a spade a spade.'
Then where/when/why would one be "calling a spade a spade?"

Quote:
May I suggest that there are duties that go beyond simply obeying the law. How about voting for instance? Wouldn't we also have a duty to see that our vote is intelligent, informed and in accord with the Biblical world view?

This is aside from the fact that we are to disobey any secular law that would cause us to transgress God's law.
Of course there's nothing wrong with voting, if you want to do so. If you think it will do any good. I did vote in the presidential election.....

Quote:
In other words, you agree that Christians should pull back from any involvement in the public square and leave the running of the country to the pagans? You believe that this is God's will for us? ...and you have scripture to back this up?
I believe God's will for us, is to develop Godly character. This will not be accomplished by political activities. I don't see a lot of point in a Christian getting very involved in politics, but IF they could do so, WITHOUT giving up any of the time they presumably devote to the Lord's business, then I wouldn't say it was "wrong," I just want to spend my time as productively as possible. That is the point I am making. As for any scripture to "back it up," I would offer the New Testament.

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You know, it is possible to be loved for the wrong reasons.
You misunderstand. I don't care if they love me. I love them.

Do you not think we are to love pagans and atheists?

You must be reading a different Bible than I read.
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Old 10-10-2009, 11:46 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,496,156 times
Reputation: 241
If we Christians are ever going to be able to ban all ABORTIONS, it will be because we have fully entered into the political game and become good enough at it to push our Christian-centered agenda
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Old 10-10-2009, 11:57 AM
 
37,661 posts, read 25,365,683 times
Reputation: 5865
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
If we Christians are ever going to be able to ban all ABORTIONS, it will be because we have fully entered into the political game and become good enough at it to push our Christian-centered agenda
Ban, Ban, Ban . . . that is a secular goal involving secular matters. There can be no spiritual benefit from it. A person who wants and uses abortion is destroying their own flesh and future through lack of love. THEY are destroying their OWN spiritual development and that of their OWN progeny . . . and preventing or forcing them to do so in illegal ways will have NO EFFECT spiritually. We MUST win this battle with LOVE and persuasion, period.
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Old 10-10-2009, 11:59 AM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
1,657 posts, read 2,289,139 times
Reputation: 330
Abso-tively! Unequivocally, YES!! We must protect what we believe is right!
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Old 10-10-2009, 12:56 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,399,986 times
Reputation: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundance View Post
Where?
Post #7.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundance View Post
I think anytime we fall short of what the Lord wants, we are sinning, in the sense that, we missed the mark. It's not our best, I feel He wants our best, in every aspect of our lives. If we do not give it, then I feel that is sinning.
And what the Lord wants is spelled out in God's law. If we fail to follow God's law we sin.

How would you reconcile this with your previous assertions that "the law does not apply" and "the law has been done away with?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundance View Post
Your question makes no sense to me, so I'm not going to answer it. I never said that all things are lawful, I said that Jesus fulfilled the law.
Fine, I'll happily rephrase it. If "the law has been done away with" and "the law does not apply," how does it matter how a bird or cat or anything else behaves? You would presumably have no standard to apply to the behavior. Therefore, the bird, cat (your analogy) or whatever would simply be free to do whatever comes natural without any regard for sin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundance View Post
He also asserted LOVE. He said that that is what will set His disciples apart. And if you do not love others, nothing you do matters - even "truth," as defined by you, or your interpretation of scripture.
Agreed. Jesus asserted love.

Do you believe that truth is relative or absolute?

How can you possibly have any idea of what my interpretation of scripture is?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundance View Post
And what do you mean "if called upon?" What situation would that happen in?
There are all sorts of possible scenarios. Think about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundance View Post
What do you think? Do you think it's wrong? Why do you think there are homosexual people in the world......what is your theory?
You fail to answer my question. Nevertheless, I will go ahead and answer yours.

Homosexuality is wrong because the word of the living God clearly and unambiguously declares it so. Therefore, it is wrong. Therefore, my personal opinion doesn't matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundance View Post
Do you think gluttony is wrong? Selfishness, pride.......? Do you think these things are wrong?
So many questions...yet, you will not answer mine.

Gluttony - wrong.

Selfishness - wrong.

Pride - wrong.

Keep in mind that you were the one that brought up the topic of homosexuality, not me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundance View Post
Then where/when/why would one be "calling a spade a spade?"
You just had an opportunity to 'call a spade a spade' when I asked you if homosexuality is wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundance View Post
Of course there's nothing wrong with voting, if you want to do so. If you think it will do any good. I did vote in the presidential election.....
Great. I hope that it was an informed vote in accordance with the true Biblical world view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundance View Post
I believe God's will for us, is to develop Godly character. This will not be accomplished by political activities. I don't see a lot of point in a Christian getting very involved in politics, but IF they could do so, WITHOUT giving up any of the time they presumably devote to the Lord's business, then I wouldn't say it was "wrong," I just want to spend my time as productively as possible.
Would it not be possible for political activities and the Lord's business to coincide? In other words, you assert that politics is over here and the Lord's work is over there. This is a rather narrow perspective I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundance View Post
You misunderstand. I don't care if they love me. I love them.
No, I'm not misunderstanding anything. You are losing track of the discussion. My assertion was that they would be choosing to love you for the wrong reason. My sense is that you understand this perfectly but just don't want to acknowledge the logic of my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundance View Post
Do you not think we are to love pagans and atheists?
Yes, we are to love pagans and atheists. Would it be loving for us to fail to discourage pagans/atheists from taking part in actions that would eventually prove harmful to themselves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundance View Post
You must be reading a different Bible than I read.
...and this assertion is based on which of my assertions?
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Old 10-10-2009, 01:09 PM
 
Location: Wherever women are
19,022 posts, read 24,777,173 times
Reputation: 11309
Absolutely, fundy, I am heavily political. I have temporarily given up on activism coz I'm concentrating on my career and personal life, but I believe all these should re-converge in my 30's again.
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Old 10-10-2009, 02:29 PM
 
Location: USA
1,895 posts, read 4,052,149 times
Reputation: 1990
I'm fine with discussion, but I'm not going to keep on with someone who is deliberately misunderstanding me, and trying to get me to say X, Y, or Z.

We're going to the mall!
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Old 10-10-2009, 02:51 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,496,156 times
Reputation: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
There can be no spiritual benefit from it. .
There will be a little helpless benefit however...
a little life that gets a chance to be born, and not ripped apart while sleeping.

Another benefit will be the love that mothers will get to share with children that will need them.

In fact, the ending of ABORTION will bring tons of benefits, including the very most Spiritual, that being that it will be the tearing down of a wall of sin that many men and women have built between themselves and their Lord.

Imagine, the chance to kneel in prayer and not be confronted continuously with the image of your Heavenly Father holding a lifeless child in his arms....your child...and seeing the tears in the Lord's eyes and knowing they are because of your stupidity and arrogance.
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