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Old 10-11-2009, 03:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
So you are saying that each of the 3 forms (persons) are all God collectively... right?
again we have to be careful about the use of the term "form" because that might get us mixed up into thinking that God is one person with just a different hat on once in a while...like a farmer might also be a husband and a dad...
That would be just different forms or titles of the same single person.

What we see in the Bible is that the one true God, is in 3 different persons.

The father is called God in the Bible
The Son is called God in the Bible
The Spirit is called God in the Bible.

we also see that the father is not the Son
The Son is not the Spirit

all 3 are addressed as the one God, yet the bible says there are not 3 gods but just the One God....


In other words...God aint like us at all!...LOL

There is nothing I can point to and tell you "The trinity is just like___"
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Old 10-11-2009, 03:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
No the Jews were saying that he was too young to know (have seen) Abraham.
Yes, just before Jesus dumped the "I AM: on them the Jews did think that Jesus was only claiming to be a very old guy.

Although weird to hear, the Jews were not going to try to kill a person just because they claim to be real old.

No...

Then Jesus dropped the "I Am God" on them...and the fireworks happend!

Jesus was not making the claim to just be old, that is not what got the Jew upset enough to kill Jesus.
That happened right after Jesus made the claim to be GOD... because when you claim to be currently alive before Abraham,,,(Not just to claim to have been alive, but to actuality be alive while standing there talking to the Jews) you are claiming to be God Almighty..and that is something the Jews would kill you over.
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Old 10-11-2009, 03:41 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Because you assume that the words "his dwelling" and "his glory" refer to a person (namely Jesus) I will be using the KJV to compare with the NIV you are using:
And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld his glory the glory as of the only begotten of the Father full of grace and truth

The NIV translates eskēnōsen as his dwelling when the word means dwell/dwelt/or dwelling but there is no pronoun implied or stated to confirm the use of "his" dwelling. It just means that the Word dwells among us. It is not denoting a personage.

And as for the "his glory" it is defined as "the glory of the One and Only" that is shown through the word that came from the Father... His glory is the Father's glory shown by the word that came from the Father. The phrase "of only begotten" is translated in the NIV as "of the One and Only, who came from the Father" but it is one word in the Greek, monogenés, which is not "the one and only, who came from the Father" but is the "only begotten."

See the difference:

KJV from strongs:
And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld his glory the glory as of the only begotten of the Father full of grace and truth.

NIV:
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

One says it is the grace of the only begotten of the Father and the other claims it is the One and Only, who came from the Father..

I see a world of difference in meaning between those two...

The word is the only word begotten of the Father.. As in befitting that of the One True God. That makes total sense and is not implying in any way that Jesus (as the only begotten SON) is the Word...

Before Jesus there was hope of knowing God but Jesus was full to overflowing with the knowledge or word of God.. That does not make him God....

Not even the disciples thought Jesus was literally the word of God and therefore God...

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Why point out this about the word of God if the Word of God was Jesus.. Is Jesus a double-edged sword or does he carry a double-edged sword?

Jeremiah 23:29 "Is not My word like fire?" declares the LORD, "and like a hammer which shatters a rock?

John 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Ephesians 6:17 And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

Jesus is not the double-edged sword or the word... it is the Spirit of God which is the sword AND THE WORD OF GOD! Jesus carries the word, he is not the WORD of God... The word of God is the MESSAGE of God or the SPIRIT of God, not the person carrying it!

Acts 7:38 "This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he [Jesus] received living oracles to pass on to you.
Oracles as you can imagine is the neuter of logios; an utterance (of God) -- oracle

Hence.. the word from God's mouth rather than logos which is a speech/message to logios which is to speak...

Jesus received the Words of God to pass on... he is not the Word of God, which Eph. 6 clearly tells us that the Spirit of God is the Word of God...

Quote:
This means that the WORD of John 1:1 that we learned was actually Almighty God, became flesh, became human flesh...
became a man...
a man who could die a normal human death...
the same death of Adam, the same death of Alan.

and in his resurrection we have the only assurance that he also can raise us to life too from the same death.
No... as I showed above... It is clear that Jesus carries the Word and speaks the Word but is not the Word. The Word of God is God but Jesus is the Messenger of the Word of God and is not God. Eph. 6:17 tells us clearly who out of the trinity is the Word of God and thus God... The Holy Spirit!

So there are two not three.... God and God's spirit are God.. Jesus was fully human.. As clearly stated in scripture.
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Old 10-11-2009, 03:49 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
If I remember the full context of Mat 15:6 correctly,
its about sons who get out of the duty to look out after their parents by making the false claim that all their money will got to the church after their death.

The result of this tradition was to cause aged parents to suffer while the children pretended that they could not give support to their parents because that would be robbing God of his cut .
Yes my point was that it was robbing God's commandment - God's LOGOS... God's word... The verse can be translated as word but you aren't saying that the Commandments of God is Jesus, even though it is translated WORD of God in other versions. So is Jesus synonymous with every time "LOGOS" or forms of "LOGOS" is/are used?
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Old 10-11-2009, 04:03 PM
 
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[quote=katjonjj;11141916]

But doesn't Jesus himself say that he will be sitting at the right hand of God? Why not say he will be back to being one with God and so they are the same in heaven.... yet he says in heaven he is at God's right hand, not back to being God.

What are your thoughts on that?[/quot]

Jesus is equal to the Father in nature....(both are God Almighty)
Yet his position within the Trinity is that of under the Father.

By this I mean the position of the Father is "greater" than the position of the Son.
Hence the terms "Father and Son" are all about their relationship with each other.

So this is why the text at John 1: 1 says that the WORD was with God, as it gives us the idea that the two person can interact with each other.

So they are not the same person...
"Let US make man in OUR (plural) image"
... "And man was made in the image (singular) of God"may be another example of this type of interaction with each other.

God is 3 persons in one God.
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Old 10-11-2009, 04:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
not back to being God.

What are your thoughts on that?
"back to being God"?

Who came up with that idea?

Jesus never stopped being God...
he was God the whole time.
From the first breath he took in that little barn, to his last breath on the cross Jesus was always 100% God Almighty.

However when God the Son became man he emptied himself of his right to act as God and had to rely completely on the Father for all the works that he did...

In this way he joined in our human condition for all the works that we humans do are actually only because of the father working in us.
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Old 10-11-2009, 04:17 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Yes, just before Jesus dumped the "I AM: on them the Jews did think that Jesus was only claiming to be a very old guy.

Although weird to hear, the Jews were not going to try to kill a person just because they claim to be real old.

No...

Then Jesus dropped the "I Am God" on them...and the fireworks happend!

Jesus was not making the claim to just be old, that is not what got the Jew upset enough to kill Jesus.
That happened right after Jesus made the claim to be GOD... because when you claim to be currently alive before Abraham,,,(Not just to claim to have been alive, but to actuality be alive while standing there talking to the Jews) you are claiming to be God Almighty..and that is something the Jews would kill you over.
You are no comprehending what I am saying... He said that Abraham had seen Jesus' day not that Jesus had seen Abraham's day.. therefore your thought that Jesus was thought to be alive in the time of Abraham is wrong. They thought he was too young to be able to fully comprehend the promises to Abraham. Jesus was claiming that he (as young as he was) was more LEARNED than those who studied and taught in the temple (Pharisees) who were old.

When Jesus said "I am God"????

Come on.. Jesus said "I am" not "I am God".. He was saying that his vast understanding of God (from God himself) was and is before Abraham...

He says his understanding of Abraham is from God himself.. right?

So then he says his understanding of Abraham is greater than theirs (the Jews he was talking to in the temple) so they got mad. He was professing to have first hand knowledge of God as did the prophets and Abraham... they wanted to stone him but it does not say for blaspheming.

He did not say he was God...
John 9:16 Some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath." But others asked, "How can a sinner do such miraculous signs?" So they were divided.

They realized that Jesus was not God but FROM GOD.. this is after they almost stoned him for saying he was God. Yet they still didn't take from it what you do! You say he said he was God... but they even knew he said he WAS FROM GOD.. your premise is flawed.

Not even the blind man whom Jesus healed says that Jesus is God but confirms what the Pharisees refuse to believe:
John 9:17 Finally they turned again to the blind man, "What have you to say about him? It was your eyes he opened." The man replied, "He is a prophet."

John 9:18 The Jews still did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight until they sent for the man's parents.

They didn't want to believe he was a prophet! they KNEW that he wasn't claiming to be GOD it was sufficiently horrible that he was claiming to be the Messiah.

The blind man's parents are brought in and they confirm that he was blind from birth but want the man to speak for himself...

John 9:22 His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews, for already the Jews had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Christ would be put out of the synagogue.

Jesus was the Christ... not Jesus was God because Jesus NEVER claimed to be GOD!

There is no basis for the trinity.

The blind man sees better than you obviously for he says:

John 9:27 He answered, "I have told you already and you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you want to become his disciples, too?"

He told them already that he thought Jesus was a prophet... they don't want to believe it. This has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus being God... the Pharisees did not think Jesus claimed to be God.. how is it then that you think that?
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Old 10-11-2009, 04:43 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post

Jesus is equal to the Father in nature....(both are God Almighty)
Yet his position within the Trinity is that of under the Father.
so you say that there is not difference in form or nature but there is a hierarchy? How do equal being have a hierarchy? So God the Father is in a position over Jesus and the Spirit or how does that work? If they are one God then hierarchy shouldn't need to be mentioned.

Quote:
By this I mean the position of the Father is "greater" than the position of the Son.
Hence the terms "Father and Son" are all about their relationship with each other.
Just like my relationship with my husband is that we are "one" we share the same goals and purpose... however you can't call me Jon and expect me to answer.. we are still two forms.

Quote:
So this is why the text at John 1: 1 says that the WORD was with God, as it gives us the idea that the two person can interact with each other.
Or how about the word is like a book and God had the book.. gave it to Jesus (a man) who used it correctly and gave it to his disciples...

Why do you assume that the WORD was WITH GOD means that it was a person next to him? It could mean possession of the word was given to another... the flesh, Jesus. Jesus possessed the word but was not the WORD or rather part of God.

Quote:
So they are not the same person...
"Let US make man in OUR (plural) image"
... "And man was made in the image (singular) of God"may be another example of this type of interaction with each other.

God is 3 persons in one God.
Genesis 1:26 in the Greek there is no word for word translation of US or OUR.. it is the translators who took the word asah and traslated it as "Let us make" when there is no let or us in the definition; tselem is translated as "in our image" when there is no "our" in the definition. The word demuth is translated as "as according to our likeness" but again there is no OUR in the original Greek.. it should read:
Make man an image in the same fashion in likeness (to self or God) to rule....Obviously the writer did not hear God say this but it is expressing the thoughts of God. This in no way proves that there is more than one God.. nor that they speak to one another or of one another as plural.

The fact that the translators added pronouns makes the verse more readable but in no way proves that there are multiple God-heads.
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Old 10-11-2009, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,402,797 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
"back to being God"?

Who came up with that idea?

Jesus never stopped being God...
he was God the whole time.
From the first breath he took in that little barn, to his last breath on the cross Jesus was always 100% God Almighty.

However when God the Son became man he emptied himself of his right to act as God and had to rely completely on the Father for all the works that he did...

In this way he joined in our human condition for all the works that we humans do are actually only because of the father working in us.
So God comes to earth after emptying himself of his Godhood to become human so he has to rely on God (himself which he left behind) to do the works he did?

Isn't that the same as saying that Jesus had to rely on God to do the works he did?

Why does Jesus have to be 100% God only to leave it behind? When he becomes 100% God again he is seated at the right hand of himself? yet there is only 1 God? wouldn't Jesus going back to heaven (and thus God) mean that he becomes 100% God again? Why then doesn't he disappear and there is again only one God?
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Old 10-11-2009, 05:31 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Believe me... you don't want to see how they piece together the trinity from the obscure ...
I agree.
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