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Old 10-11-2009, 07:06 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,415,178 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
The thing you will notice is that any person who hates the Trinity will sooner or later also attack the bible.

They may hav all kinds of reasons for their attack on the Bible, but the point is that if you try to use the many pro-Trinity bible verses to support the idea of the Trinity they will turn around and try to cast doubt on all the verses you used....

Not only will they try to say our "understanding and interpretation" of the verse is in error, but they also will attack the very text itself as if it has no right to teach against their views....LOL
I showed you your error... let me repeat....
He did not say he was God...
John 9:16 Some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath." But others asked, "How can a sinner do such miraculous signs?" So they were divided.

They realized that Jesus was not God but FROM GOD.. this is after they almost stoned him for saying he was God. Yet they still didn't take from it what you do! You say he said he was God... but they even knew he said he WAS FROM GOD.. your premise is flawed.

Not even the blind man whom Jesus healed says that Jesus is God but confirms what the Pharisees refuse to believe:
John 9:17 Finally they turned again to the blind man, "What have you to say about him? It was your eyes he opened." The man replied, "He is a prophet."

John 9:18 The Jews still did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight until they sent for the man's parents.

They didn't want to believe he was a prophet! they KNEW that he wasn't claiming to be GOD it was sufficiently horrible that he was claiming to be the Messiah.

The blind man's parents are brought in and they confirm that he was blind from birth but want the man to speak for himself...

John 9:22 His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews, for already the Jews had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Christ would be put out of the synagogue.

Jesus was the Christ... not Jesus was God because Jesus NEVER claimed to be GOD!

There is no basis for the trinity.

The blind man sees better than you obviously for he says:

John 9:27 He answered, "I have told you already and you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you want to become his disciples, too?"

He told them already that he thought Jesus was a prophet... they don't want to believe it. This has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus being God... the Pharisees did not think Jesus claimed to be God.. how is it then that you think that?

Even those who were standing there hearing Jesus' words did not assume or think that Jesus claimed to be God....He claimed to be OF GOD and a PROPHET OF GOD.... not God.
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Old 10-11-2009, 07:07 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,495,871 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
the Father is not Human but the Son is human.. that does not equate to EQUAL in my mind...
(Because you raise many interesting different points, it takes me different posts to answer each,,,bare with me)


The Father is not the Son.
The Father is God
The Son is God
The Son became flesh.
But even as the Son became flesh he never stopped being fully God Almighty.

So forever the Son is , has been, and will always be equal to the father in their natures...

(Their nature is the one true God).
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Old 10-11-2009, 07:09 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,415,178 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
What I said, (and you can go back and check to make sure) was that the Father and the Son are equal in nature.

Their nature is as the one true God

However at the same time the position of the Father is greater than the Son as they relate to each other.
BUT---- my boss and I are of the same nature.. wish the same outcome for the company but we are two people... I cannot do his job and he has me do mine..... How is God the Father the boss but equal to Him and subservient to Him is God the Son?

If they are equal why the need for Greater than or lessor than?
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Old 10-11-2009, 07:16 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,415,178 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
(Because you raise many interesting different points, it takes me different posts to answer each,,,bare with me)


The Father is not the Son.
The Father is God
The Son is God
The Son became flesh.
But even as the Son became flesh he never stopped being fully God Almighty.

So forever the Son is , has been, and will always be equal to the father in their natures...

(Their nature is the one true God).
if their nature is the one true God.. (and I agree by the way) then how is it that Jesus is God?

My nature is that of the one true God yet I don't profess to be God in the flesh? Why is Jesus.. who according to John 17 is my brother...all of the sudden God?

Can Jesus be human with the aid of God and still be an adequate sacrifice or does Jesus HAVE to be God for an adequate sacrifice?

Remember that the sacrifices in the OT were not divine animals but clean animals. Jesus was the ultimate "type" of sacrifice in that he was clean not divine....

Jesus does not have to be God in order for the message to be complete but he does have to be HUMAN in order for the message to be complete...

You (and others) are adding to the scripture saying that Jesus is God when he clearly never said that of himself..

Can you show me the scripture that you think shows that Jesus said he is God? Is the "I am" statement already addressed the only one? Because I already show without a doubt that Jesus being the Messiah was the reason the Jews tried to stone him, not his alleged profession of Godhood.
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Old 10-11-2009, 07:37 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,217,562 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
There is no conflict here, Ironmaw. What is a word? A word is an abstract phenomenon of consciousness and exists only where consciousness exists. A word is a series of symbols grouped together, which when taken as a whole, creates in a being with consciousness an abstract realization or "knowingness" that we recognize as the condition of having meaning. When our cerebral cortex (brain) produces this abstract "knowingness" condition, it is producing consciousness. THAT is what God is, THAT is what Jesus produced in His human brain, and THAT is what was reborn as Holy Spirit when He died. It is ALL the SAME consciousness . . . all the same God.
I dont go around calling myself mighty God or everlasting father i don't know about you. But that is what i call Christ.
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Old 10-11-2009, 07:48 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,495,871 times
Reputation: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
. I am willing to admit that I am wrong but what you are saying is not that I am wrong.....
This sentence of yours is hard for me to understand.

What I see that stands out is the use of the term "wrong".

Personally I hate that fact that sometimes I slip up and use that term when posting on a topic.

While I will post that an "idea" you have is wrong, I try,... oh how I try, to keep from saying "You are wrong"

This is because calling someone wrong like that only tends to push them back from whatever point I wanted to make.
It puts the other person on the defensive, and needlessly adds a "personal attack" to the conversation.

I slip up sometimes,,,
Im guilty of that Im sure.
yes I have and will in the future call someone "wrong"
But mostly I try not to do that, or I try to make the people I call "wrong" as general as I can while still making my point.
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Old 10-11-2009, 08:12 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,495,871 times
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Ah, now for the real stuff that I enjoy......the questions!

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post


Question 1 - So God comes to earth after emptying himself of his Godhood to become human so he has to rely on God (himself which he left behind) to do the works he did?
-----------------


Question 2 - Isn't that the same as saying that Jesus had to rely on God to do the works he did?

------------------------------

Question 3 - Why does Jesus have to be 100% God only to leave it behind?

-----------------------------

Question 4 - When he becomes 100% God again he is seated at the right hand of himself?

----------------------------

Questions 5 and a bit - yet there is only 1 God? wouldn't Jesus going back to heaven (and thus God) mean that he becomes 100% God again?


-----------------------------

Question 6 - Why then doesn't he disappear and there is again only one God?
and now, the answer!

Answer 1 - God the Son became flesh, but he always remains fully God.

What he did is empty himself of his right to act as God, and this allowed him to be as we are...
In other words, Had Jesus not emptied himself of his right to act as God, then we would not be able to identify with him.
We need to pray to the father, We need the father to do the works in us,,,,so Jesus became able to share in this need that we have.

Answer 2 - yes, Jesus had to rely on the Father for all the works that he did....in the same way as we do to...
Jesus was able to share with us in this way, share in our human condition of always relying on the FATHER

Answer 3 - Jesus never left being fully God...Jesus is always and will always be 100% God.
But he did empty himself of his right to act as God, and wrapped himself in human flesh....
By the way, Jesus is still 100% human and 100% God...even now

Answer 4 , God the Son sits at the right hand of God the father.
now this is a symbol, as God the father is Spirit and does not have a left or right hand...
So when the text talks about the Son being the right hand man of the father it is talking about their close working relationship.

Answer 5...There is only One God, and Jesus never became God, he always was 100% God and will always be...

Answer 6...God the Son will sit at the right hand of God the father, this is talking about their position, their relationship with each other,,,that of closeness.
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Old 10-11-2009, 08:20 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,415,178 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
This sentence of yours is hard for me to understand.

What I see that stands out is the use of the term "wrong".

Personally I hate that fact that sometimes I slip up and use that term when posting on a topic.

While I will post that an "idea" you have is wrong, I try,... oh how I try, to keep from saying "You are wrong"

This is because calling someone wrong like that only tends to push them back from whatever point I wanted to make.
It puts the other person on the defensive, and needlessly adds a "personal attack" to the conversation.

I slip up sometimes,,,
Im guilty of that Im sure.
yes I have and will in the future call someone "wrong"
But mostly I try not to do that, or I try to make the people I call "wrong" as general as I can while still making my point.
Understood... I myself say that I am wrong in the sense that my IDEA is possibly wrong not me myself as I have only the best possible intentions...

LOL we do agree on some things! and I am not even remotely offended or defensive.

I have had a most wonderful debate with you that has not gotten personal at all... I appreciate that and just wanted to reiterate that I don't have to be right as long as I understand what the opposition to my idea is.. I don't take offense...

It's all good, Alan! and I count you as a learned fellow who can give me a run for my money!
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Old 10-11-2009, 08:26 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,495,871 times
Reputation: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
BUT---- my boss and I are of the same nature.. wish the same outcome for the company but we are two people... I cannot do his job and he has me do mine..... How is God the Father the boss but equal to Him and subservient to Him is God the Son?

If they are equal why the need for Greater than or lessor than?
These are some GREAT QUESTIONS!!!!!


and now for my attempt at an answer>

Presiden Obama is greater than you are.
By the office he holds, the President is greater in authority in goverment than you and I are.
I think we both can agree on that point.

Yet you and President Obama are both human.
You have 100% human DNA and so does Pesident Obama.
So in regards to your human nature, you are equal to the President.

So we now have two very clear answers that i think we can agree on...
#1 - the President has a greater position that we have
#2 you are equally human to the President, you share a common human nature.
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Old 10-11-2009, 08:31 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,495,871 times
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But now the tricky part...

is President Obama "better" than you are?


Ahh, see now I have changed the subject we are talking about, now I ask about merit and personal standards...

Now the answer we find is not so clear.
The truth is I would NEVER claim that the president is better than you are because that has to do with morals and different things that have nothing to do with his office.

Now note, the Bible tells us that the father is greater than the Son.
But the Bible never says that the father is better than the son,,,,and it cant...

It cant because both the Father and the Son share the same nature....the nature of the One true God...
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