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Old 10-11-2009, 07:48 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,488,995 times
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This time my answers will appear in this color right in the middle of your posts,,,,(It saves time, I spent an hour on my last answer and almost lost it due to my damn computer....



Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
if their nature is the one true God.. (and I agree by the way) then how is it that Jesus is God?

I dont really understand this question as I should to try to answer it,





My nature is that of the one true God yet I don't profess to be God in the flesh? Why is Jesus.. who according to John 17 is my brother...all of the sudden God?

In John 1:1 we learn that the WORD (and that is Jesus) was always there.
The Word never became God,
The Word was always God,

But then one day the Word wrapped himself in human flesh and was born.
So this baby had both a human nature like ours, and a God nature like the father.
This is why we can sit down at the table and have a meal with the Lord God Almighty, and he turns to us and calls us his brother....

We did not become Gods, Rather God became man,,,that is why we are called his brother.







Can Jesus be human with the aid of God and still be an adequate sacrifice or does Jesus HAVE to be God for an adequate sacrifice?

A hard and tricky question to answer.
Likely take a Bible scholar to address .
My answer is only that God did die for me..

I dont know if I can really answer the "Why did he do it?" question...

We are only told that it was because of love....past that better ask one of the Bible big brains on the forum



Can you show me the scripture that you think shows that Jesus said he is God?
John 8:58 is a good start,,,they almost killed him over that one...LOL.
Another place to look is at the posts I have given about the book of Revelation where Jesus lays this all out about himself being God the "Almighty"

Beginning and the end, first and the last, the Alpha and the Omega...Jesus spells it all out there that he is the Lord God almighty....



.
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Old 10-11-2009, 07:56 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,392,881 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Ah, now for the real stuff that I enjoy......the questions!


Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post

Question 1 - So God comes to earth after emptying himself of his Godhood to become human so he has to rely on God (himself which he left behind) to do the works he did?
-----------------


Question 2 - Isn't that the same as saying that Jesus had to rely on God to do the works he did?

------------------------------

Question 3 - Why does Jesus have to be 100% God only to leave it behind?

-----------------------------

Question 4 - When he becomes 100% God again he is seated at the right hand of himself?

----------------------------

Questions 5 and a bit - yet there is only 1 God? wouldn't Jesus going back to heaven (and thus God) mean that he becomes 100% God again?


-----------------------------

Question 6 - Why then doesn't he disappear and there is again only one God?
and now, the answer!

Answer 1 - God the Son became flesh, but he always remains fully God.

What he did is empty himself of his right to act as God, and this allowed him to be as we are...
In other words, Had Jesus not emptied himself of his right to act as God, then we would not be able to identify with him.
We need to pray to the father, We need the father to do the works in us,,,,so Jesus became able to share in this need that we have.

Answer 2 - yes, Jesus had to rely on the Father for all the works that he did....in the same way as we do to...
Jesus was able to share with us in this way, share in our human condition of always relying on the FATHER

Answer 3 - Jesus never left being fully God...Jesus is always and will always be 100% God.
But he did empty himself of his right to act as God, and wrapped himself in human flesh....
By the way, Jesus is still 100% human and 100% God...even now

Answer 4 , God the Son sits at the right hand of God the father.
now this is a symbol, as God the father is Spirit and does not have a left or right hand...
So when the text talks about the Son being the right hand man of the father it is talking about their close working relationship.

Answer 5...There is only One God, and Jesus never became God, he always was 100% God and will always be...

Answer 6...God the Son will sit at the right hand of God the father, this is talking about their position, their relationship with each other,,,that of closeness.
So God doesn't have a true "right hand" but Jesus sits at his symbolic right hand...

Jesus emptied himself of God to use God... how does that make sense to you?

So Jesus was God from the beginning but yet there is no scripture that says "Jesus is God".. if that is of such importance why not say it once? Just once!

As I said before... I profess that I am "one" with God and you, Alan, are "one" with God... the same as Jesus prayed for us to be in John 17:20-23 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

So does that mean that we are God? or is that specifically reserved for Jesus? Because I see no difference in the relationship.
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Old 10-11-2009, 07:59 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,392,881 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
These are some GREAT QUESTIONS!!!!!


and now for my attempt at an answer>

Presiden Obama is greater than you are.
By the office he holds, the President is greater in authority in goverment than you and I are.
I think we both can agree on that point.

Yet you and President Obama are both human.
You have 100% human DNA and so does Pesident Obama.
So in regards to your human nature, you are equal to the President.

So we now have two very clear answers that i think we can agree on...
#1 - the President has a greater position that we have
#2 you are equally human to the President, you share a common human nature.
Yes.. agree on all points... however.. you said that Jesus and God share something in common.. but they do not share humanity. Jesus possessed humanity while God the Father did not... how is that equal?
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Old 10-11-2009, 08:08 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,488,995 times
Reputation: 241
Again, my words are in this color..
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
So God doesn't have a true "right hand" but Jesus sits at his symbolic right hand...

Yes, this is a way of talking about how Jesus and the father work as a team,,,




Jesus emptied himself of God to use God... how does that make sense to you?

Jesus emptied himself only of his right to act as God.
This was done in order that he might be as we are when we have to rely completely on the father.

Had Jesus not emptied himself of his right to act as God, then we could never think we were just like him...

he would always be different, and as different his resurrection would be different, and so moot



So Jesus was God from the beginning but yet there is no scripture that says "Jesus is God".. if that is of such importance why not say it once? Just once!

I did not write the Bible,
The Bible was not my idea.
I can not take credit for what is in the Bible,. or answer for what is not...

We read what God gave us to read...and it is enough to support the trinity


So does that mean that we are God?

No, we are one in union with God, but our human nature never changes to become God's nature...
We are always human...always.

But we can become one with each other in union, and one with the Lord God too,,,,united in purpose and union of faith.



.
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Old 10-11-2009, 08:11 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,392,881 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
This time my answers will appear in this color right in the middle of your posts,,,,(It saves time, I spent an hour on my last answer and almost lost it due to my damn computer....
LOL that happens to me all the time... it is so frustrating! It takes a lot of research and typing to respond so it is frustrating when you click in the wrong spot and "poof" all your hard work is gone.. sorry.. truly I sympathize.

But .. I will copy what you said in RED....
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
if their nature is the one true God.. (and I agree by the way) then how is it that Jesus is God?

I dont really understand this question as I should to try to answer it,
I will skip this one for now.... because it is confusing out of context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
My nature is that of the one true God yet I don't profess to be God in the flesh? Why is Jesus.. who according to John 17 is my brother...all of the sudden God?

In John 1:1 we learn that the WORD (and that is Jesus) was always there.
The Word never became God,
The Word was always God,

But then one day the Word wrapped himself in human flesh and was born.
So this baby had both a human nature like ours, and a God nature like the father.
This is why we can sit down at the table and have a meal with the Lord God Almighty, and he turns to us and calls us his brother....

We did not become Gods, Rather God became man,,,that is why we are called his brother.
That is what I don't understand... how do you get Jesus is God from the Word is God... how is the Word.... Jesus? I don't get that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post

Can Jesus be human with the aid of God and still be an adequate sacrifice or does Jesus HAVE to be God for an adequate sacrifice?

A hard and tricky question to answer.
Likely take a Bible scholar to address .
My answer is only that God did die for me..

I dont know if I can really answer the "Why did he do it?" question...

We are only told that it was because of love....past that better ask one of the Bible big brains on the forum
But my question was.. If Jesus died as a HUMAN not as God... would that change the appropriateness of the sacrifice. If Jesus was a sinless human would that be any less wondrous, to you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Can you show me the scripture that you think shows that Jesus said he is God?
John 8:58 is a good start,,,they almost killed him over that one...LOL.
Another place to look is at the posts I have given about the book of Revelation where Jesus lays this all out about himself being God the "Almighty"

Beginning and the end, first and the last, the Alpha and the Omega...Jesus spells it all out there that he is the Lord God almighty....


I will repeat:

I showed you your error... let me repeat....
He did not say he was God...
John 9:16 Some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath." But others asked, "How can a sinner do such miraculous signs?" So they were divided.

They realized that Jesus was not God but FROM GOD.. this is after they almost stoned him for saying he was God. Yet they still didn't take from it what you do! You say he said he was God... but they even knew he said he WAS FROM GOD.. your premise is flawed.

Not even the blind man whom Jesus healed says that Jesus is God but confirms what the Pharisees refuse to believe:
John 9:17 Finally they turned again to the blind man, "What have you to say about him? It was your eyes he opened." The man replied, "He is a prophet."

John 9:18 The Jews still did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight until they sent for the man's parents.

They didn't want to believe he was a prophet! they KNEW that he wasn't claiming to be GOD it was sufficiently horrible that he was claiming to be the Messiah.

The blind man's parents are brought in and they confirm that he was blind from birth but want the man to speak for himself...

John 9:22 His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews, for already the Jews had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Christ would be put out of the synagogue.

Jesus was the Christ... not Jesus was God because Jesus NEVER claimed to be GOD!

There is no basis for the trinity.

The blind man sees better than you obviously for he says:

John 9:27 He answered, "I have told you already and you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you want to become his disciples, too?"

He told them already that he thought Jesus was a prophet... they don't want to believe it. This has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus being God... the Pharisees did not think Jesus claimed to be God.. how is it then that you think that?

Even those who were standing there hearing Jesus' words did not assume or think that Jesus claimed to be God....He claimed to be OF GOD and a PROPHET OF GOD.... not God.
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Old 10-11-2009, 08:18 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,488,995 times
Reputation: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yes.. agree on all points... however.. you said that Jesus and God share something in common.. but they do not share humanity. Jesus possessed humanity while God the Father did not... how is that equal?

Hmmm?

The Father is fully 100% God
The Son is fully 100% God

Things that are equal to the same thing, are also equal to each other....

If A = 10 and B = 10,
then A = B

If the Father is God
If the Son is God
Then the Father and the Son are equal to each other.


But the father is NOT the son.

The Word (that is God Almighty) became flesh.
The father did not become flesh
The Spirit did not become flesh

only the Son became flesh.

The son was still equal in his God nature with the father and the spirit, Even wrapped in human flesh he was still always equal to the father as God.
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Old 10-11-2009, 08:23 PM
 
Location: Florida
580 posts, read 632,464 times
Reputation: 149
Default Anything and Everything

Matthew 11:27
"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
John 10:30 I and the Father are one."
John 10:38 But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

John 14:8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

John 14:9
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

Joh 14:15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

Has anyone ever noticed, the Father is never left alone. either Jesus is on His right hand side, the Spirit is here. And before Jesus, said he had to go to send him, the Holy Spirit. Is the Spirit speaking to anyone on this? There is so much more to this.
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Old 10-11-2009, 08:30 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,488,995 times
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Im in this color
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post



That is what I don't understand... how do you get Jesus is God from the Word is God... how is the Word.... Jesus? I don't get that.

John wrote it that way...
In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God...the word became flesh.

That is what the Bible says, and that is what I believe.

As Tomas says. "My lord and my God"...
As Jesus explains about himself in Revelation..."I am the first and I am the last"...

as it talks about in the Old test.
: "I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me". ...

and in Philippians where it tells us that Jesus was in nature God





But my question was.. If Jesus died as a HUMAN not as God... would that change the appropriateness of the sacrifice. If Jesus was a sinless human would that be any less wondrous, to you?

Again, such questions are out of my pay rate...
I cant answer "What if...?"
I only know what the text says....

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Old 10-11-2009, 08:36 PM
 
Location: Florida
580 posts, read 632,464 times
Reputation: 149
Jesus showed this as an example of humbleness for us to the Father. He knew the Father would glorify him with the glory he had before.

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Colossians 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
God is Spirit.
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Old 10-11-2009, 08:44 PM
 
Location: UPSTATE SC
1,405 posts, read 2,110,227 times
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The expression "only begotten" is an interesting phrase, especially as it applies to Jesus.

The meaning of only begotten. "Only begotten" is from the Greek monogenes. This word is used nine times in the Greek New Testament. The word is a compound word, mono, meaning only, and gennesis, meaning birth. "Only begotten" (monogenes) is used five times by John, three by Luke, and once by the writer of Hebrews. Luke used the word to describe the widow's son, "only son of his mother" (Lk. 7: 12, see 8: 42, 9: 38). The writer of Hebrews said Abraham "offered up his only begotten son" (Heb. 11: 17).

The scriptures teach that God's people are "sons of God" (Rom. 8: 14). Jesus was simply not just another son of God.. . . Jesus' Sonship was understood as indicative of deity (Jn. 10: 36, 38). Monogenes is used of Jesus' Sonship. Jesus is the "only begotten Son" (I Jn. 4: 9). "Single of its kind," comments Thayer, "…used of Christ, denotes the only Son of God or who in the sense in which he himself is the Son of God has no brethren…he is of nature or essentially Son of God, and so in a very different sense from that in which men are made by him children of God" (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon, pgs. 417, 418). Beloved, God's people are adopted "sons of God," Jesus is the only Son of God by nature (cp. Rom. 8: 14-16).

As God's monogenes Jesus enjoyed unique glory (Jn. 1: 14). The only begotten declared God (Jn. 1: 18). Jesus being of the same essential nature as the Father could reveal God as no other could (Jn. 14: 8-11). The only begotten is the ultimate expression of God's love (Jn. 3: 16, I Jn. 4: 9).
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