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Old 10-11-2009, 08:45 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,384,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Hmmm?

The Father is fully 100% God
The Son is fully 100% God

Things that are equal to the same thing, are also equal to each other....

If A = 10 and B = 10,
then A = B

I understand A=B if both equal 10 but you are saying that A=human (Jesus) and B=God (not human) so how does A=B?

Quote:
If the Father is God
If the Son is God
Then the Father and the Son are equal to each other.
if salmon are fish and live in the sea and dolphins live in the sea then both are fish right? Nope.. one is a mammal and one is a fish... they are vastly different...

Quote:

But the father is NOT the son.

The Word (that is God Almighty) became flesh.
The father did not become flesh
The Spirit did not become flesh

only the Son became flesh.

The son was still equal in his God nature with the father and the spirit, Even wrapped in human flesh he was still always equal to the father as God.
Where did all the verses I posted come into play.. I am starting to feel that I addressed all of your objections to my view in turn but you have not addressed the verses I posted. The word becoming flesh does not mean that the Word is Jesus... The word is God... God's spirit is the Word as defined in Eph. 6... why do you ignore these things...

I already showed that the passage where you say Jesus claims to be God is not that Jesus claims to be God but you ignore it... I've reposted it several times... when will you address it? It makes your argument built on sand if you cannot dispute what I've said and the verses I presented.

So please refer back to the many verses posted about Jesus being the Word... because if Jesus is the Word of God then every time the "Word of God" phrase is used it MUST apply to Jesus, right? yet I showed you that even Jesus himself talks about the WORD OF GOD and does not say he IS the Word of God...

Acts 6:7 So the word of God spread. The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly, and a large number of priests became obedient to the faith.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

1 Kings 12:22 But this word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God:

Jesus (the word of God) said: Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that." (Mark 7:13)

1 Cor. 14:36 Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached?

1 Thess. 2:13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.

1 Chronicles 17:3 That night the word of God came to Nathan, saying:

Proverbs 30:5 "Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

Acts 12:24 But the word of God continued to increase and spread.

So all those instances of the "word of God" can be substituted with Jesus?

Jesus continued to increase and spread?

What about:
2 Cor. 2:17 Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God.

Heb. 13:7 Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.

Jesus is spoken? by leaders? What about Jesus being the word of God?

2 Cor. 4:2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

Are they distorting Jesus?

Col. 1:25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness--

So God gave the word of God... Jesus, right?... to his servant... ? Jesus was given again? I don't understand.

Then the finale... Ephesians 6:17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

The helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit ... is the Word of God... Jesus is not the Word... the sword of the Spirit is the Word...

Luke 3:2 during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert.

So how did John the baptist have the Word of God when Jesus was standing next to him?

Rev. 1:2 who testifies to everything he saw--that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

the word of God and the testimony of Christ are the same but Christ is not the word...

Yet it is Jesus substituted for "word of God" here.. right?

2 Peter 3:5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water.

Rev. 1:9.. I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

The word of God and testimony of Jesus are the same but Jesus is NOT the Word of God...

How much more clear can it be????
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Old 10-11-2009, 08:46 PM
 
Location: Florida
580 posts, read 632,006 times
Reputation: 149
Whose Son Is the Christ

Matthew 22:41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42"What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?"
"The son of David," they replied. 43He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,
44" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet." ' 45If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?" 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.
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Old 10-11-2009, 08:46 PM
 
Location: UPSTATE SC
1,405 posts, read 2,109,024 times
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When John the Baptist baptized Jesus, all three (3) were present, Jesus, the ONLY begotten Son . . . God the Father, who stated this is my son . . . not this is one of my sons, or one of my children . . . . and the dove (the Holy Spirit).

Jesus was there at the beginning, he was the Creator . . . his existence did not begin when he was brought forth in birth by Mary.
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Old 10-11-2009, 08:48 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,486,807 times
Reputation: 241
The nature of Jesus as God, is the same as the nature of the father.
Thus all you can ever know about the father is only seen in the Son.
There is no difference in their natures, to see the son is to see the same nature as the father,,,,they are the same.

Thus is what Jesus was talking about when he was asked to show his men the father, and he told them that if you see the Son you see the father...
They are the very same nature without any difference at all...

all the father is, the Son is...there is nothing lacking in his God-ness that the son lacks and the father has...
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Old 10-11-2009, 08:50 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,384,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercy777 View Post
Matthew 11:27
"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
John 10:30 I and the Father are one."
John 10:38 But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

John 14:8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

John 14:9
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

Joh 14:15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

Has anyone ever noticed, the Father is never left alone. either Jesus is on His right hand side, the Spirit is here. And before Jesus, said he had to go to send him, the Holy Spirit. Is the Spirit speaking to anyone on this? There is so much more to this.
Yes... there is soooo much more to this! I agree!
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Old 10-11-2009, 08:56 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,486,807 times
Reputation: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I understand A=B if both equal 10 but you are saying that A=human (Jesus) and B=God (not human) so how does A=B?

Ok,,lets look at this again...

Jesus was and is now, 100% God almighty...
The Father was and is now, 100% God Almighty

So The Son and the father are both equal to the one God Almighty
Thus the father and the son are equal to each other in their nature.

But the son also is 100% human too!
and I am human
so in this way Jesus and I are equal human brothers.

Now I can get away with my claim to be the brother of Christ, because God became man,,,,
Not because I became God....

So Christ has both a 100% human nature and 100% God nature...
The two different nature in the one person...forever.
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Old 10-11-2009, 08:56 PM
 
Location: Florida
580 posts, read 632,006 times
Reputation: 149
Default Father, Son and Holy Spirit

The Shoulder...The Elbow...The Hand. Used in three different aspects, working together makes the whole.
God the Father...God the Son...God the Spirit. There is also scripture of God the Spirit and heart in us and Jesus Spirit and heart in us.
God is Spirit.
Jesus is a life-giving spirit.
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Old 10-11-2009, 08:58 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,384,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifesigns64 View Post
The expression "only begotten" is an interesting phrase, especially as it applies to Jesus.

The meaning of only begotten. "Only begotten" is from the Greek monogenes. This word is used nine times in the Greek New Testament. The word is a compound word, mono, meaning only, and gennesis, meaning birth. "Only begotten" (monogenes) is used five times by John, three by Luke, and once by the writer of Hebrews. Luke used the word to describe the widow's son, "only son of his mother" (Lk. 7: 12, see 8: 42, 9: 38). The writer of Hebrews said Abraham "offered up his only begotten son" (Heb. 11: 17).

The scriptures teach that God's people are "sons of God" (Rom. 8: 14). Jesus was simply not just another son of God.. . . Jesus' Sonship was understood as indicative of deity (Jn. 10: 36, 38). Monogenes is used of Jesus' Sonship. Jesus is the "only begotten Son" (I Jn. 4: 9). "Single of its kind," comments Thayer, "…used of Christ, denotes the only Son of God or who in the sense in which he himself is the Son of God has no brethren…he is of nature or essentially Son of God, and so in a very different sense from that in which men are made by him children of God" (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon, pgs. 417, 418). Beloved, God's people are adopted "sons of God," Jesus is the only Son of God by nature (cp. Rom. 8: 14-16).

As God's monogenes Jesus enjoyed unique glory (Jn. 1: 14). The only begotten declared God (Jn. 1: 18). Jesus being of the same essential nature as the Father could reveal God as no other could (Jn. 14: 8-11). The only begotten is the ultimate expression of God's love (Jn. 3: 16, I Jn. 4: 9).
Question... if you adopted a son would that son get more or less than your natural born son? The purpose of adoption is to make one son like the other and an heir to inheritance of the Father.. therefore adopted sons are the same as the natural son or begotten son.. there is no reason for God to come down to earth as Jesus... Jesus could be begotten in that he obeyed God and we are adopted sons because we are said to have obeyed like Jesus did. There is no difference... adopted or not we are ALL sons of God as Jesus was... we are his brothers. He bought and paid for our inheritance... Making Jesus God does not change that we are all sons whether adopted or not...

Can you honestly say that the perfect sacrifice for the sins of HUMANITY is GOD?

The perfect sacrifice for sins in Abraham's time was an unblemished animal not a GOD... Jesus was a perfect HUMAN.. 0% God yet still perfect... why make him out to be GOD who is incapable of sin? He was sinless even after having been tempted with sin...

We know Jesus was fully human:

Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin.

but we do not know that Jesus was fully God... where is the verse that says Jesus is fully God.
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Old 10-11-2009, 09:03 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,384,960 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Ok,,lets look at this again...

Jesus was and is now, 100% God almighty...
The Father was and is now, 100% God Almighty

So The Son and the father are both equal to the one God Almighty
Thus the father and the son are equal to each other in their nature.

But the son also is 100% human too!
and I am human
so in this way Jesus and I are equal human brothers.

Now I can get away with my claim to be the brother of Christ, because God became man,,,,
Not because I became God....

So Christ has both a 100% human nature and 100% God nature...
The two different nature in the one person...forever.
So by your logic.. A=God and B=God so A=B right?

But B(also)=human so A then cannot = B right?

But if C=human the B=C so how come B does not equal C?

How is it that B (Jesus)= A (God) but B (Human Jesus)= C (Humanity) but A does not equal C?

Why can't I be God?

A=B and B=C but A does not equal C?

Where is that logical?
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Old 10-11-2009, 09:08 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,384,960 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercy777 View Post
The Shoulder...The Elbow...The Hand. Used in three different aspects, working together makes the whole.
God the Father...God the Son...God the Spirit. There is also scripture of God the Spirit and heart in us and Jesus Spirit and heart in us.
God is Spirit.
Jesus is a life-giving spirit.
Ask a surgeon to fix your arm and he will ask whether it is the shoulder or the elbow or the hand... the distinction matters.... it may hurt when you use it as a whole but it is important which part of the arm being used actually hurts....

God the Father...
God the Son
God the Spirit

God's spirit being God, I have no problem with. My spirit is Mine... God's spirit it God... I have no problem with that... but saying that God is the son and the Father is where I have a problem. My father is not me nor am I my father... God the Father is the only true God.... yet his son is also God the Father...

They are one.... so why can't I call Jesus "God the Father?"

If I can call Jesus(God the Son) God why can't I call God the Father Jesus?

I can if what you say about the trinity is true... God the Father is equivalent to God the Son therefore I can say that God the Father is Jesus...right?
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