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Old 10-11-2009, 10:14 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,490,618 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Where is that logical?
Like this...

Things equal to the same thing, are also equal to each other.


Thus in the bible we read in Philippians that Jesus is in nature God.
We also read that he is called the First and the last in Revelation.

next we read that the father is called God
and he also is called the First and the last.

So unless you have 2 Gods...or 2 firsts and 2 lasts....you are left with only one conclusion.
That Jesus Is God the son, the 2nd person of the trinity....the one true God Almighty,

equal in his God nature as to the father.

So, when talking about the nature of the father (100% God)
and the nature of the Son, (100% God) they are written as
A = X
B = X
A = B

This is concerning only the God nature of both the Son and the father.

BUT....(and here is the tricky part)
but the Son is also 100% human too after he wrapped himself in human flesh.

So while this can not ever change the fact that A=B forever, we also have to keep in mind the 2 different natures of Christ.

Christ is both fully God and fully man...
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Old 10-11-2009, 10:18 PM
 
Location: UPSTATE SC
1,405 posts, read 2,111,322 times
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Ironmaw gave a great post that sums it all up: Jesus is a Diety, is God, is one with his father, Alan has provided many versus as well, and did a good job of explaining.

Here is a link, that I found very helpful when I was asking the same questions.

Jesus Christ is God Incarnate
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Old 10-11-2009, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,398,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Like this...

Things equal to the same thing, are also equal to each other.


Thus in the bible we read in Philippians that Jesus is in nature God.
We also read that he is called the First and the last in Revelation.

next we read that the father is called God
and he also is called the First and the last.

So unless you have 2 Gods...or 2 firsts and 2 lasts....you are left with only one conclusion.
That Jesus Is God the son, the 2nd person of the trinity....the one true God Almighty,

equal in his God nature as to the father.

So, when talking about the nature of the father (100% God)
and the nature of the Son, (100% God) they are written as
A = X
B = X
A = B

This is concerning only the God nature of both the Son and the father.

BUT....(and here is the tricky part)
but the Son is also 100% human too after he wrapped himself in human flesh.

So while this can not ever change the fact that A=B forever, we also have to keep in mind the 2 different natures of Christ.

Christ is both fully God and fully man...
BUT.. you didn't address C... C being Mankind.. If A=B and B=C... why doesn't A=C?

If A=X and B=X but B also=C then doesn't C=X too?
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Old 10-11-2009, 10:27 PM
 
Location: UPSTATE SC
1,405 posts, read 2,111,322 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

John 1:1 & 14
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Colossian 1:13-20

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


Christ is the mighty god, the everlasting father. He created all things and by him all things consist. He is the word and is god and was with god before the creation of the world.
Amen!!!! I believe this post is the answer to the questions asked. This was beautiful Ironmaw, thank you so much for posting this. Blessings,
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Old 10-11-2009, 10:29 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,490,618 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
BUT.. you didn't address C... C being Mankind.. If A=B and B=C... why doesn't A=C?

If A=X and B=X but B also=C then doesn't C=X too?
again.,...Jesus has two totally different natures.
jesus is both God, and human

jesus is eqaul to the father in that both are fully 100% god
But jesus also is now 100% human too!

so lets retunr to our work at understanding this.

jesus is called God in the Bible
The father is called God in the Bible
The Spirit is called God in the bible..

yet the Bible says there is only one God.
This is how we in the church understand the holy Trinity...(The truth is we dont understand it as much as we just admit it is true)
That within the one nature of the one true God, there are 3 persons...

so when dealing with his human nature,
I am human
Jesus is human'
Jesus and I are human brothers
A=x
B=X
A=B


the same when dealing with his God nature...

The father is God
The Son is God
The Son and the father are equal

our natures never change
God is always God
We humans are always human
But God the son wrapped himself in human flesh and became man
(Still God, just with a human nature as well now)

man never became God, nor will ever become god.
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Old 10-11-2009, 10:47 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,398,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
jesus is called God in the Bible
yet I do not see Jesus is called God in the bible... you have yet to convince me of that.
Moving on though...
Quote:
so when dealing with his human nature,
I am human
Jesus is human'
Jesus and I are human brothers
A=x
B=X
A=B


the same when dealing with his God nature...

The father is God
The Son is God
The Son and the father are equal

our natures never change
God is always God
We humans are always human
But God the son wrapped himself in human flesh and became man
(Still God, just with a human nature as well now)

man never became God, nor will ever become god.
So you are saying that A(God)=B(Jesus-God) and C(Jesus-human)=D(humans like me) but A does not equal D?

Then A is not equal to B in the same way that C(B) is equal to D?

Why can't I be God? If Jesus is fully human and fully God,,,why can't I have the same relationship with God as Jesus did?
He says in John 17 that I should be able to.. but the trinity doctrine says that it is impossible for D to equal A even though the common factor (B or C) is there....

Is that not what the Bible teaches... That we must be like Jesus and follow in his footsteps?

John 5:18-19 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

If Jesus is equal with God in the sense that he actually is God... how can we emulate his sinlessness?

If I cannot be God then how can I be like Jesus?

In other words.. How can I be like Jesus if Jesus was God and I cannot be God?
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Old 10-12-2009, 05:38 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,490,618 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
So you are saying that A(God)=B(Jesus-God) and C(Jesus-human)=D(humans like me) but A does not equal D?
I saying that we are equal to the human nature of Jesus
We are just as human as Jesus is .

But we are not equal to God, so because Jesus had two different natures we are not equal to his God nature.

So let us review...
Jesus is called God in the Bible in many places,
(see where I have pointed to where he is called - "My Lord and my God", ..."the First and the Last"...."in nature God")
So we know Jesus is God Almighty.

Add to this the fact that we also know that the Father is called God...
(remember he also is called the First and the last and besides him there is no God)

And finaly add to this that in the book of ACTS the Holy Spirit is also called "God" and we now add it all up.

Jesus = to God
The Father = to God
The Spirit = to God

So all 3 are equal to God.
But the Bible tells us there are not 3 Gods,

So if all 3 are different persons, and if all 3 are God, then the only answer is that somehow all 3 persons are the One God.

Last edited by alanMolstad; 10-12-2009 at 05:52 AM..
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Old 10-12-2009, 05:45 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,490,618 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
If Jesus is fully human and fully God,,,why can't I have the same relationship with God as Jesus did?
The answer is that Jesus has two complete natures,

Always remember that, Jesus is both God and man ..


We share in the human nature of Jesus,,,but we do not share in his God nature.

Jesus is fully God Almighty, that is something we will never be.
Remember the incarnation is God becoming man, not man becoming God.

We are the brother of Jesus because he is fully human...

But we are not the brother of God because we would need to become God to be that....we never become God, so we will never become the "brother" of God.
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Old 10-12-2009, 05:56 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,490,618 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
That we must be like Jesus and follow in his footsteps?
Yes, we are to be like Christ, and because Jesus is fully human we can be like him.

If Jesus was not completely human than any attempt to be like him would be a joke.
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Old 10-12-2009, 05:59 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,490,618 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
If Jesus is equal with God in the sense that he actually is God... how can we emulate his sinlessness?
Dont forget Jesus is just as human as you are!....

Remember also that when Jesus was tempted just as we are, that his answer to that temptation was to never take his eyes off the Lord...

This is our example...this is what we are to do to!
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