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Old 10-12-2009, 01:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
then Jesus did not have to forsake his Godhood to come to earth to receive God's Spirit to minister...
Jesus NEVER gave up his Godhood!

Even sleeping inside Mary's womb he was still 100% God Almighty, the creator of Heaven and earth.

Even on the cross, he was still God Almighty

Even when He died and was placed in the tomb , he was still God Almighty...
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Old 10-12-2009, 01:25 PM
 
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Will the constant bickerers take a break and please explain to me what they each think constitutes a person . . . if not the consciousness. I am typing to other consciousnesses that I can identify (not by any physical bodies) but only by that which proceeds from their consciousness. THAT is where personhood resides. If Jesus acquired and expressed the consciousness (mind) of God perfectly . . . what could possibly be the difference between them?

The only difference that makes sense is the scope and additional baggage of a human body and brain while alive among us (with its human nature) and the earthly Spirit realm which is the first destination for all human consciousness reborn as Spirit. While in the human body . . . Jesus's consciousness was in the "womb" of His earthly brain. When Jesus was reborn into the Spirit realm as the Holy Spirit after His crucifixion . . . His consciousness became available to us ALL (even those who were dead . . . since consciousness is already an eternal form of energy). The phrase that the Father is "greater than I" refers to these separate "scopes" . . . NOT any real difference in essence. God's consciousness is God's consciousness . . wherever it is.
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Old 10-12-2009, 01:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Will the constant bickerers take a break and please explain to me ...
Pcamps, I think MysticPhD would like you to explain something to him...
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Old 10-12-2009, 01:31 PM
 
Location: East Coast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Pcamps, I think MysticPhD would like you to explain something to him...
That the trinity is a man made doctrine ??
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Old 10-12-2009, 02:33 PM
 
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Default The real significance of Jesus

I think that what is lost in all this "God-Man-Holy Spirit" Trinity nonsense is the real importance and good news about Jesus. Jesus is what we are intended to be. All that we should strive to become is embodied in the life of Jesus. But the most enlightening part of it all is that Jesus was human! . . . of course He possessed God's consciousness, John 5:19-21

19Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

21For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

John 5:25-26

25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

John 5:30

30 I can of mine own self do nothing

But what is most encouraging is that He had ALL our human weaknesses as well . . . it is His perfect consciousness that made all the difference. Like an earthly Master with unbelieving disciples . . . it is often necessary to prove to the disciples that what the Master can do . . the disciples can learn to do. The best way to do that is by example. Jesus is our example of the potential for our consciousness to overcome our human nature. What is even more encouraging is that he existed over two thousand years ago.


Jesus's existence was the signal that humankind, as a species, had evolved sufficiently to acquire the mental discipline necessary to create an eternal soul, despite the dominance of barbarous man-the-animal in most of the leadership and military positions. Metaphorically speaking, the species had achieved spiritual puberty - over two thousand years ago!

In a quotation from John, 4:35, Jesus reveals this glorious state of affairs to his disciples,

. . . I say to you, lift up your eyes and behold that the fields are already white for the harvest. And he who reaps receives a wage, and gathers fruit unto everlasting life, so that the sower and the reaper may rejoice together. . . I have sent you to reap that on which you have not labored. Others have labored and you have entered into their labors.

Others had labored for untold generations to produce this crop of man, using fear, promise of reward, parting seas, burning bushes, stones turned to water, snake-staffs, dream interpretation, and on, and on. Primitive methods from primitive minds. Yet they were gloriously successful as Jesus was to prove by his gentleness and compassion, alien characteristics to the dominant breed of his day. It is this very "alieness" that made Jesus stand out so brightly among his own generation.

Jesus is the proof that we can become what we are intended to become. God has provided us with more than just words that we can achieve our purpose. Doing is always the best teacher, so He let a human do it. Unfortunately, our task is more rigorous than Jesus' because of the amount of weakness we have to overcome. Our genetic fathers have many weaknesses . . . Jesus's Father does NOT. This is not to minimize the pain and suffering Jesus endured, for it was considerable. The graphic portrayal of his suffering in the film “The Passion of the Christ” was probably very accurate. But even in our highly evolved and civilized state, we have difficulty understanding HOW he could actually love his tormentors without any reduction in degree and without the slightest semblance of hate. Jesus indicated his advantage in Matt 11:29

. . . Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart; and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden light.


It is my belief that if we all increased the strength of our souls, as we passed on this mental capacity epigenetically to each succeeding generation, eventually all people might have a similarly easy yoke and burden. We will probably never eliminate all our weaknesses, but it is difficult to know the full potential of the human mind. As we understand more, we perform more God-like manipulations of our world. Jesus possessed God's understanding and performed accordingly.
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Old 10-12-2009, 10:08 PM
 
78 posts, read 87,875 times
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I don’t know for a fact,(since i am not a seminary student) but I have read somewhere on the net that the HASTINGS Dictionary of the Bible is somewhat a standard in seminary schools:

HASTINGS Dictionary of the Bible by Schribners, quote from page 1015 under the topic:
"THE TRINITY--The Christian doctrine of God (q.v.) as existing in three Persons and one Substance is NOT DEMONSTRABLE BY LOGIC OR BY SCRIPTURAL PROOFS..."
According to Mr. Hastings, one would have to use ILLOGICAL AND UNSCRIPTURAL data in order to prove a trinity

Here is one of my favorite quotes from L. Ray smith at bibletruths.com:
My mind and spirit REBELS against illogical and unscriptural doctrines.
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Old 10-12-2009, 10:16 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,412,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Jesus NEVER gave up his Godhood!

Even sleeping inside Mary's womb he was still 100% God Almighty, the creator of Heaven and earth.

Even on the cross, he was still God Almighty

Even when He died and was placed in the tomb , he was still God Almighty...
But you said he was not "allowed' to use his Godness while he was human so we would know that he was just like us (he wasn't cuz he was God) so he must've left it behind... This is the natural progression of this discussion and is why the doctrine of kenosis helps to stabilize the rocky foundation of the trinity. You should read up on the doctrines that support your view of Jesus as God.
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Old 10-12-2009, 10:18 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,412,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Will the constant bickerers take a break and please explain to me what they each think constitutes a person . . . if not the consciousness. I am typing to other consciousnesses that I can identify (not by any physical bodies) but only by that which proceeds from their consciousness. THAT is where personhood resides. If Jesus acquired and expressed the consciousness (mind) of God perfectly . . . what could possibly be the difference between them?

The only difference that makes sense is the scope and additional baggage of a human body and brain while alive among us (with its human nature) and the earthly Spirit realm which is the first destination for all human consciousness reborn as Spirit. While in the human body . . . Jesus's consciousness was in the "womb" of His earthly brain. When Jesus was reborn into the Spirit realm as the Holy Spirit after His crucifixion . . . His consciousness became available to us ALL (even those who were dead . . . since consciousness is already an eternal form of energy). The phrase that the Father is "greater than I" refers to these separate "scopes" . . . NOT any real difference in essence. God's consciousness is God's consciousness . . wherever it is.
So by that same token then I can be full of God's consciousness and yet I am not God. God and I can also be of ONE mind as Jesus and God were of ONE mind (John 17) but that doesn't make me God, nor does it make Jesus God.
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Old 10-12-2009, 10:44 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,494,835 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
But you said he was not "allowed' to use his Godness .
I believe I said ( And you can check to make sure I did say it) that Jesus emptied himself of his right to act as God.
Doing this allowed him to rely on the Father just as all humans must.

BUT,,,,,(notice the big butt) BUT Jesus never stopped being God,
Jesus was God, fully 100% God almighty the whole time.

Jesus has two complete natures...
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Old 10-12-2009, 10:46 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,494,835 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
so we would know that he was just like us
Jesus Is just like us.
Jesus is fully 100% human

Jesus is just like the Father in Heaven too
Fully 100% God Almighty

Jesus has two natures
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