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Old 10-12-2009, 11:29 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
So by that same token then I can be full of God's consciousness and yet I am not God. God and I can also be of ONE mind as Jesus and God were of ONE mind (John 17) but that doesn't make me God, nor does it make Jesus God.

katonjjj...Jesus is God....Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here [am] I; send me.
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Old 10-12-2009, 11:36 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,440,091 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Jesus Is just like us.
Jesus is fully 100% human

Jesus is just like the Father in Heaven too
Fully 100% God Almighty

Jesus has two natures
So when verses talk about Jesus in the flesh we should understand that he is 100% human but then when Jesus is said to be similar to God we should understand that Jesus is 100% God...?

It doesn't make any sense to add JESUS IS GOD to the nature of Jesus. Jesus NEVER ONCE HIMSELF professed to be God the Father or the Almighty God or the Most High God.

So if it is a tenant of salvation... tell me why Jesus didn't just come out and say "I AM THE MOST HIGH GOD" yet instead he separates himself by saying God is the Father and he (Jesus) is the son.

Going back to the mathematics.... you are saying that God is ABC, Jesus is B, God the Father is A, and the Holy Spirit is C... Therefore A=ABC and B=ABC and C=ABC...right?

Well why doesn't B=C? Can we also interchange their titles? You say Jesus is God but can you also say that God is Jesus?

Check this out:
"Why do christians reject the hundreds of verses of scripture that refute the trinitarian view, in favor of the less than half a dozen which appear to support it? Why do christian's reject Jesus own confession of who he is?
"If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? (John 10:35-36)
If there were a time and context to say plainly who he was, then that situation was it, and he did! The confession could not be any clearer, but just leave it to the religious leaders and 'scholars' so called to explain this plain confession away.
Jesus of Nazareth is properly honored by believing who he says he is, not by making him into something he is not a la Rome's doctrine of Mary. If someone comes along and says that Jesus of Nazareth ought to be honored above his Father, are you going to do that? Will that glorify Jesus more?
Christianity (Roman, Protestant, non-denominational, whatever...) makes the trinity doctrine its most important litmus test for "orthodoxy". This author does not, for this author can understand how people are confused regarding this doctrine, for this author sincerely believed the trinity doctrine for many years due to having the religious leaders as my masters. However, it is very significant that the trinity doctrine is usually placed at the top of christianity's official statements of "faith" (really doctrinal litmus tests for membership in their religious organizations). "


Some Thoughts About the Trinity Doctrine
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Old 10-12-2009, 11:43 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,440,091 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
katonjjj...Jesus is God....Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here [am] I; send me.
Isa 6:8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!"

I= Isaiah...the prophet. And God did send Isaiah the prophet! You should quit trying to use scripture to prove the deity of Christ with scripture from other prophets that are sent by God to deliver a message. Isaiah answers the voice of the Lord... God is not answering himself. God is talking to Isaiah (see Isa. 7:3 for clarification) and Isaiah answers.... it is not that difficult to understand... is it?
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Old 10-13-2009, 12:01 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post

It doesn't make any sense to add JESUS IS GOD to the nature of Jesus. Jesus NEVER ONCE HIMSELF professed to be God the Father or the Almighty God or the Most High God.
katonjj,

What does God say that He is?

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

What did Jesus say that He is?

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

I don't need to get into the "clouds" characterization do I since you adhere to most of the Preterist concepts.
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Old 10-13-2009, 12:06 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,313,580 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Isa 6:8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!"

I= Isaiah...the prophet. And God did send Isaiah the prophet! You should quit trying to use scripture to prove the deity of Christ with scripture from other prophets that are sent by God to deliver a message. Isaiah answers the voice of the Lord... God is not answering himself. God is talking to Isaiah (see Isa. 7:3 for clarification) and Isaiah answers.... it is not that difficult to understand... is it?

Us....Us......and ..if you would read the discourse. Enitrely. Isaiah is acting out what Christ does...his prophetic discourse throughout his life....several types going on here. The same goes for Hosea and how his life fulfilled the types and shadows of God, Christ, and the Jewish nation, apostate, and remnant. You have alot to learn here my dear friened.


Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth

Last edited by sciotamicks; 10-13-2009 at 12:18 AM..
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Old 10-13-2009, 12:19 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,440,091 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
katonjj,

What does God say that He is?

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

What did Jesus say that He is?

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

I don't need to get into the "clouds" characterization do I since you adhere to most of the Preterist concepts.
DUDE... Jesus answered "I am" to the question posed to him... no hidden meaning... Mark 14:62 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?"

YES! Jesus is the Christ, the SON of the blessed one or one that we adore.

You ask me: Are you a woman.... I answer: I am.....

Does that make me God or a woman?

Jesus confirmed that he was the Christ (the Messiah) and the Son of God....

Yet you use the verse to say he is quoting the "I AM WHO I AM?"

Yikes!And no you don't have to go over any preterism besides those 5 points you mentioned which made little sense as far as what we were speaking of but I am full preterist so at least we can agree that in theory we (you and I) have a pretty good understanding of the bible... why you believe Jesus says he is God though... I cannot comprehend.
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Old 10-13-2009, 12:28 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post

Jesus confirmed that he was the Christ (the Messiah) and the Son of God....

Yet you use the verse to say he is quoting the "I AM WHO I AM?"

Yikes!And no you don't have to go over any preterism besides those 5 points you mentioned which made little sense as far as what we were speaking of but I am full preterist so at least we can agree that in theory we (you and I) have a pretty good understanding of the bible... why you believe Jesus says he is God though... I cannot comprehend.
A so did God do with Moses. As so did Jesus do with the High Priest, and to top it all off, he..."came in the clouds." This view is nothing new, and there plenty of scripture to back it. Go on, check it out.

One thing I can agree with MysticPHD, there are many levels to the scripture, that through time, we all can increase perpetually as being the sons of God.... and Preterism of course......come let's take a ride. Maybe all of us together, as warped as we may seem to each other, can set the stage for what our grandchildren receives from the blessings.

Who knows...maybe I am just nuts...and it's late.
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Old 10-13-2009, 12:35 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,440,091 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Us....Us......and ..if you would read the discourse. Enitrely. Isaiah is acting out what Christ does...his prophetic discourse throughout his life....several types going on here. The same goes for Hosea and how his life fulfilled the types and shadows of God, Christ, and the Jewish nation, apostate, and remnant. You have alot to learn here my dear friened.


Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth
I already went over this.. US thing... there is no hebrew word to be translated us. It is "let us make" translated from asah which is to accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow, but no US in there.

"after our likeness" is translated from the word demuth... and again no reason why the our is in there rather than my as there is no indication that the pronoun should be plural rather than singular.

Same thing in Isaiah 6:8 the words "for us then said" are all derived from the Hebrew word yalak which means again, away, bear, bring, carry away, come away, depart, flow,... there is no US in that either.

The translators are using a pronoun in what they think is in keeping with the original text but as you can see there is no reason to use US in place of just the word "then" and there is the participle eth which denotes self but is in no way to be translated as US in the sense that there is more than one God.

There is no pronoun US in the Hebrew text. God could also have said who would go for me... but I have no idea why it is US. One could say that at that time the translation occured it was common to use plural pronouns to denote kingship, majesty, or authority as kings sometimes refered to themselves as US and therefore encompassing the whole kingdom.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
8. I . us-The change of number indicates the Trinity (compare Ge 1:26; 11:7). Though not a sure argument for the doctrine, for the plural may indicate merely majesty, it accords with that truth proved elsewhere.


Even the commentary admits that it may simply indicate majesty....



All prophets were a type of Christ... they were prophets and so was Christ a prophet...

However, if a "lesser" prophet says something "God-like" you attribute it to God but if Jesus says it you attribute it to Jesus is God....

Serious error there as all prophets spread the Word of God and all prophets were human. You are saying that Jesus was different in that he was God...

God saves and is the savior... Jesus did God's will... Jesus was not God.

Last edited by katjonjj; 10-13-2009 at 12:45 AM..
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Old 10-13-2009, 12:40 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,440,091 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
A so did God do with Moses. As so did Jesus do with the High Priest, and to top it all off, he..."came in the clouds." This view is nothing new, and there plenty of scripture to back it. Go on, check it out.

One thing I can agree with MysticPHD, there are many levels to the scripture, that through time, we all can increase perpetually as being the sons of God.... and Preterism of course......come let's take a ride. Maybe all of us together, as warped as we may seem to each other, can set the stage for what our grandchildren receives from the blessings.

Who knows...maybe I am just nuts...and it's late.
I'm going with the "I am just nuts...and it's late" option LOL... selfish I know!

Anyway... Jesus coming in the clouds has more to do with judgment and how he left the world in the clouds than with him being God... you can even say the clouds were representative of God's spirit because it is God who is doing all the judgment but it is not telling us that since Jesus said "I am Christ the son of God, and came on clouds that means he is God... there can be no logical connection there.

Jesus being sinless and dying on the cross for sins as a HUMAN (fully and not God at all) is infinitely more outstanding than God being sinless and dying on the cross.. wouldn't you say?

I mean answer me this: (perhaps tomorrow after a good nights sleep)

What if Jesus was Fully man (0% God) just like any one of us and did the things he did... how would your respect for Jesus change in any way?
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Old 10-13-2009, 12:57 AM
 
37,791 posts, read 25,486,178 times
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Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
So by that same token then I can be full of God's consciousness and yet I am not God. God and I can also be of ONE mind as Jesus and God were of ONE mind (John 17) but that doesn't make me God, nor does it make Jesus God.
No . . . consciousness is composite vibratory energy (in the final analysis). God's consciousness is the target "frequency." A separate vibratory source (any human consciousness . . . like Jesus's) would need to attain "perfect resonance" to become identical (and not just some harmonic). Jesus's did and His separateness vanished in the perfect resonance. Sorry to get technical . . . but there is no other way to get the distinction across.
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