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Old 10-13-2009, 11:28 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,389,248 times
Reputation: 1690

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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
No but you are cussing in front of your husband.
You are taking the Name of the Lord in vain
You are breaking the Commandment of God at that point.
And, even if you dont know this, or mean this, the very fact that you cussed in front of your husband is showing him a lack of respect.

Had Tomas cussed like that in front of the Lord, he would have been showing Jesus a lack of respect

....can you guess what the reaction of Jesus would be to it?

Had Jesus said nothing, then Jesus wold be just as guilty of breaking the Commandment, and that would mean he is not the Christ and we need to look for another....
First of all Jesus broke the sabbath commandment according to the teachers of the law...so I guess we need to look for another!


BTW- taking the Lord's name in vain is equivalent to vanity, emptiness, or deceit, to swear an oath upon deceit, to attribute to God what is not of God... not just simply saying "Oh Lord" or "Oh God" and is more like when you attribute to God what is not, or you misuse it such as Hitler when he said he was doing God's work.

If it is as you say then saying God bless you would be the same as God ____ it.. Still an empty use of the name of God... BUT--- God is not the Almighty's true name. God is a term used as a generic classification but is not the name that God gave himself when speaking to Moses.

Saying that it is God's will that your team win the game is defaming the character of God, and is taking his name in vain. There were many false gods around the Israelites and all of the other gods names were used to create a sense of authority...

As I said, it is more like attributing to God what he did not say. When Hitler claimed he was doing God's will in slaughtering Jews..that was defaming the name and character of God.... I wouldn't worry too much about the words phrase My God and My Lord being considered a violation of the third commandment.

We know Thomas doubted that Jesus had risen and as such he also doubted that Jesus was sent by God. Perhaps he was still stuck in the thought that the messiah would lead them in battle against the Romans... but here's the thing.. If you or I were faced with a sudden realization that Jesus indeed came from God and had risen... saying My Lord and My God would be in recognition not swearing... He was not calling Jesus God.

If there was a satan, it would be totally within his character to trivialize this commandment to one of simply saying God bless you casually, or Oh God in exclamation....
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Old 10-13-2009, 11:55 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,389,248 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
All of that I can tell you copied out of some book or websitet

(I think you know my feelings about that kind of post...LOL

When people, (even well meaning people) start to just post stuff on the forum that you got from a website it means that the conversation I am in is over.
Im no longer talking to a person, Im talking to a website.

Websites cant think for themselves...So there is no point in the conversation at that point.)
Um... Here is what I wrote in my post...
"Thomas' confession is an acknowledgment that Jesus had indeed risen from the dead, but it is not a declaration that Jesus is "God the Son". Thomas, a Jew, used a mode of expression common to the Old Testament in which accredited representatives of God are referred to as "God". Angels are called "God" in the following passages: Gen. 16:7 cf. vs. 13; 22:8, 11, 15 cf. vs. 16; Exod. 23:20, 21. Moses is referred to as a "god" to Pharaoh. (Exod. 7:1, "god" is translated from the Heb. "elohim"). "Elohim" translated "God" can refer to the judges of Israel as in Psa. 82:1, 6 cf. John 10:34. It is also translated "judges" in Exod. 21:6; 22:8, 9 and "gods" (mg. "judges") in Exod. 22:28.

From a website... as I don't have time right now to go through every verse... the website is: The Trinity - John 20:28

all the words are mine except the obvious post and LINK TO THE WEBSITE... I abhor plagiarism so I hope you aren't saying that.
I told you why I used the site... I didn't have time to copy and paste the verses at the time... but you can discount the website if that is what you want and I can put forth a post that would be quite lengthy and would not give the same perspctive, necessarily of the website.... I gave you the opportunity to look it over and gave you my own words, as well.

This sounds like a poor excuse to bail out of the conversation, which hasn't been all that enlightening of late because of how often you repeat the same thing over and over.

Quote:
I just will point out that such a post is a lot of words that are attempting to show us how it is ok to call Jesus "God" without it meaning that he is God...

I will just say that,
well,
thats a lot of work, to do to just not admit that the Bible does in fact call Jesus "God",,,,,,

and...(And here comes the funny part of this post)
and....

Telling me that when the Bible calls Jesus "God" it is just an expression, is to admit to me that the Bible does call him God....
It seems to me that you pick and chose what you read based on whether or not you can rebut it. I said that what you take for the only human being or spiritual being to call Jesus God (the only thing you think is concrete enough to stand up to debate) is from the doubting Thomas and is an EXCLAMATION...not an expression such as OMG... and exclamation.

It's pretty funny to think Thomas exclaims this phrase but three verses later Jesus is back to being God's Son... but you can believe what you want... I think Jesus as God lessens the significance of an ultimate human sacrifice and example of being obedient to God. God being obedient to himself seems like a no-brainer and not at all similar to us. So if you can't possibly reach God-likeness as Jesus did then why again was he a perfect human sacrifice?

Quote:
and that is what I have been saying from the start.....LOL
Like I said... I think you will continue to believe what you want, so I am not trying to convince you, just asking questions and discussing opinions.
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Old 10-14-2009, 04:24 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,488,048 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
He was not calling Jesus God.

.
yes he was...

I believe that the actual words that he spoke could be translated,
"The Lord of me, the God of me"

I remember that from a tape by Dr Walter martin who was the guy on the radio show the Bible Answer Man.
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Old 10-14-2009, 05:23 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,488,048 times
Reputation: 241
I will write a story tonight about why my feelings about people that post crap they just get from websites.
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Old 10-14-2009, 05:30 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,488,048 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
So if you can't possibly reach God-likeness as Jesus did then why again was he a perfect human sacrifice?

.
"reach God-likeness"??????

That is not what the Bible tells us.
Jesus is God
Jesus did not reach for and become God....

And Jesus is not God-like
Jesus is 100% God...
Always was God
Always will be God.

He is 100% human, and so his death will work to cover our sins...
If Jesus were even just slightly different than us, then his death would be moot.

Only a human could die for another human...

Jesus took the place of others when he went on the cross.
If Jesus were even slightly different, than it would be like attempting to use a sheep or a goat to take away your sins...(it would not work)

So that is why we use the term a "Perfect Human sacrifice"...
being that Jesus was without sin (perfect)
Jesus was human (Human)
Jesus dies a normal human death ( sacrifice)
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Old 10-14-2009, 09:19 AM
 
37,508 posts, read 25,243,901 times
Reputation: 5857
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
I will write a story tonight about why my feelings about people that post crap they just get from websites.
I'm sure you feel that is important . . . but why not explain why you insist on retaining the literal primitive understandings of people thousands of years in the past . . . in spite of the vast knowledge accumulated since. This deliberate disregard for knowledge and retention of ignorance has always fascinated me. I would be far more interested in your reasons for that.
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Old 10-14-2009, 09:26 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,389,248 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
yes he was...

I believe that the actual words that he spoke could be translated,
"The Lord of me, the God of me"

I remember that from a tape by Dr Walter martin who was the guy on the radio show the Bible Answer Man.
So you can reference outside sources and NOT post the link ... that is okay but posting a link if you are me... is wrong or is it just in rebuttal to you that it is wrong?

It's difficult enough to continue a conversation with you when you don't read what I wrote but when you completely ignore a post because there is a link ... it seems like you are bailing on the conversation rather than having an actual point.
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Old 10-14-2009, 09:37 AM
 
37,508 posts, read 25,243,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
He is 100% human, and so his death will work to cover our sins...
If Jesus were even just slightly different than us, then his death would be moot.

Only a human could die for another human...

Jesus took the place of others when he went on the cross.
If Jesus were even slightly different, than it would be like attempting to use a sheep or a goat to take away your sins...(it would not work)
::sigh:: Jesus had to die to make His perfect consciousness Spirit (Holy Spirit) a part of ALL human consciousness so that connection with God would be possible through His Holy Spirit.
Quote:
So that is why we use the term a "Perfect Human sacrifice"...
being that Jesus was without sin (perfect)
Jesus was human (Human)
Jesus dies a normal human death ( sacrifice)
Sacrifice was a primitive introduction to the process for attaining eternal life . . . "denial of self." It serves no purpose for God because God requires NOTHING from us. It was to teach us the importance of distinguishing between good and bad drives and denying the selfish bad ones, period. We simply locked on to the primitive concept and retained it AS IF God needed anything from us. We have retained the primitive concept of sacrifice instead of understanding the true concept of denial of self. God does NOT punish, has no ego needs to be satisfied, certainly never needed dead lambs, goats, or any other "sacrifices" . . . especially not Jesus . .. His only begotten Son.

The "sacrifice" of Jesus was in knowing that the primitive barbarians would scourge and crucify Him for His meassage of love and acceptance as the TRUE NATURE of God (not the jealous, warlike, murderous, raping, baby killing destroyer of enemies of the Jews.). He was willing to accept all that in love (and denial of His own pain, suffering and survival) to make that point. THAT is the "sacrifice." I cannot love any God that would REQUIRE that as punishment or payment for ANYTHING . . . certainly not for a single act of disobedience from "newbies" who had no concept of good or evil . . . that is patently absurd.
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Old 10-14-2009, 09:41 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,389,248 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
"reach God-likeness"??????

That is not what the Bible tells us.
Jesus is God
Jesus did not reach for and become God....

And Jesus is not God-like
It is humans who must take on the qualities of God (God's likeness) in order to live as Jesus did... right? Because we are not born God as you say Jesus was always God. So we are to be of the character of God... Do you disagree with that?


Quote:
Jesus is 100% God...
Always was God
Always will be God.

He is 100% human, and so his death will work to cover our sins...
If Jesus were even just slightly different than us, then his death would be moot.

Only a human could die for another human...
So Jesus died so that all other God/Humans will be saved because Jesus was not like us if he was God... I am not 100% God... I am 100% human! Therefore Jesus is more than just slightly different than me. You contradict yourself when you say he was "exactly" like the rest of humanity... how many other humans do you know of who are also 100% God? Yes you will say that it is Jesus' human part that is comparable but it is so convenient for you to separate Jesus the human and Jesus the God... yet you say they are the same...

Quote:
Jesus took the place of others when he went on the cross.
If Jesus were even slightly different, than it would be like attempting to use a sheep or a goat to take away your sins...(it would not work)

So that is why we use the term a "Perfect Human sacrifice"...
being that Jesus was without sin (perfect)
Jesus was human (Human)
Jesus dies a normal human death ( sacrifice)
Jesus was God as you say and Jesus was Human... Kat is just human... how then is that the "perfect human sacrifice?"

God cannot die...yet Jesus died. God cannot be tempted, yet Jesus was tempted. You are saying that Jesus compartmentalized his 100% God part so he could qualify as 100% human....

It seems to me that you think Jesus is Bruce of Bruce Almighty! not the human messiah! But that is just my opinion, and you are welcome to yours.
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Old 10-14-2009, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,118,745 times
Reputation: 807
This is totally out of hand....

Jesus was born a human being who lived a sinless and perfect life, something we are called to do. Jesus sacrificed himself, by the will, plan and purposes of God, because Jesus was of the same mind as God and wanted to do his Fathers will above all else. Jesus' sacrifice (the debt he paid for all of our sins which kept us separated and from being one with The Father) restored our broken relationship to God which is what we lost in Eden. Jesus showed us The Way to be one with The Father as he was one with The Father by living a perfect life. He was able to accomplish being perfect and we are able to accomplish this as well...he showed us The Way. We are to take up our cross daily and follow him if we want to enter into the Kingdom...we have to take the narrow road, which is very hard and filled with much tribulation because we have to totally crucify our "carnal man" so that we can be perfect as The Father is perfect. This is why we are told not to love the world or anything in the world...if we remain carnal, we will never be one with The Father. Until we move past the "milk" of Christ crucified, we will never be given the "solid food" of the hidden mysteries. Belief in Jesus is not the be all and end all of our salvation experience...there is work we have to do to as well and if we just sit back and rely on some "believers prayer" to give us our salvation...we are all deluded and living a huge lie. But this is the way that "carnal man" thinks and will always think until we crucify our carnality completely...We are told to completely deny ourselves and follow his commandments in order to be perfected...this is the only way we will ever be one with our Father. This is why we have to "work out" our salvation with fear and trembling. There are higher mysteries available to us as Paul stated in Corinthians but we will never receive them until we are perfected and those mysteries are not written in the Bible, they are revealed to us from God himself. Jesus told us himself...there is only One Teacher....no more will a neighbor teach his neighbor but they will all be taught from God (paraphrase).
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