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Old 10-11-2009, 10:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
name me one church that teaches against the Trinity that does not also add their own "corrections" to the Bible?

Some like the JWs just add a word to the Bible here and there to make it agree with the Watchtower.
Others like the Mormons have needed to add a whole new bible to support their views.

But the one thing all Non-trinity faiths have in common is that they do not find their views in he Bible, so they attempt to change the Bible to make it fit their views....
think of any church that disagrees with the Trinity that has not tried to also cast doubt on the bible too?

I cant...

The reason for the connection between people who hate the Trinity and their needing top cast doubt about the Bible is that deep down they know full well the Bible teaches the Trinity....


Such people seem to live by one rule.
If the Bible does not support your views, change the Bible!
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Old 10-11-2009, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
yes, the Romans Killed Jesus for the claim he made of being a King
The Jews handed him over to the Romans for his claim of being he Great "I Am"....

Jesus claimed to be God, and for this he was killed.
Perhaps you can tell me why you (and others) believe that Jesus said he is the "I am" as God says he is the "I am who I am"

Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

The "I AM WHO I AM" is Ehyeh asher ehyeh or I-shall-be that I-shall-be is God's name which is saying that God is alone in His authority regarding people.

Yet you take a verse like:

John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am [the one I claim to be], you will indeed die in your sins."

and say that "I am" is indeed his declaration of being the 2nd in the trinity... the words used in Greek for "I am" or in some versions.. "I am He" is egō eimi but the ones that say "I am He" lump "he you will indeed die" all gathered from the word apothnéskó which, of course, cannot be traslated "he you will indeed die" so really Jesus says: I am the one I claim to be...the Messiah, not the 2nd person in the trinity.

He explaims in verse 25:
"Who are you?" they asked. "Just what I have been claiming all along," Jesus replied.

They still did not understand so he says in verse 28:
So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am [the one I claim to be] and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

Jesus is not GOD! He speaks for the Father not on his own.
Again in verse 28 is "I am" or egō eimi and the "He" is translated or added to the "and" which is kai so the "He" is added by the translators.

The addition of a word is what Christygrl is referring to as the basis of this trinity idea. An idea completely repugnant to anyone who understands the God of the OT. The fact is that the Jews expected the Messiah to lead them out of captivity and re-establish the Jewish nation above all others... the Messiah was never supposed to be God, but an agent of God. If the Jews expected the Messiah to be God why would they want to stone him for blasphemy? They would believe not want to stone him!

Regardless...Jesus always differentiates himself from the Father and calls himself the SON OF GOD... Not God...
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Old 10-11-2009, 10:46 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
think of any church that disagrees with the Trinity that has not tried to also cast doubt on the bible too?

I cant...

The reason for the connection between people who hate the Trinity and their needing top cast doubt about the Bible is that deep down they know full well the Bible teaches the Trinity....


Such people seem to live by one rule.
If the Bible does not support your views, change the Bible!
Exactly what the translators of the bible did when they made kai equal he and or "he you will indeed die" all gathered from the word apothnéskó... that is translating to suit your doctrine!

If you want to believe and worship Christ as God... well good luck with that. I would rather worship God as God and Christ as SON of God... but that's just me taking the Bible for face value.
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Old 10-11-2009, 10:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
.Jesus always differentiates himself from the Father...
yes, this is the basic "Christianity 101" teaching, that Jesus is not the father....

We teach that Jesus is God, the 2nd person of the trinity.
That with the father and the Spirit they are of the same nature, (being the one God in nature)

Anyone that teaches that Jesus is the Father is no Christian.

anyone who thinks that the Christian church teaches that Jesus is the Father is in deepest error...
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Old 10-11-2009, 10:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Exactly what the translators of the bible did when t.....
as I have predicted...LOL

To hate the trinity is to hate the bible as we read it..

That is why people that hate the trinity have to cast doubt on the Bible, because they see clearly the trinity is taught in the Bible...
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Old 10-11-2009, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Thats easy...
Jesus IS fully 100% human,,,just as I am.
yet you are not God as you claim he is for saying "I am" just as you said "I am"... how do I know that you are not claiming to be the "I am?"
Quote:
as such, Jesus prays to the Father in heaven just as I and the rest of us humans do.
Yes Jesus prays to HIS GOD as we do... this shows that a God (as you perceive Jesus to be) has a God. How is that possible?

Quote:
Had Jesus not prayed to the Father as his God then there would always be some doubt that he was like us.
If Jesus was 100% human and 100% God then he was NOT like us... only if Jesus was 100% Human and 0% God would he be like us as we are 0% God, right?

Quote:
The fact that Jesus prayed to the same father that I pray to is what the christian faith is all about....
Again... Jesus being 100% God is not at all like us. He prayed to the Father because the Father is GOD, not Jesus.
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Old 10-11-2009, 10:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
how do I know that you are not claiming to be the "I am?"
thats easy...

If I make the claim "I am fat"...or..."I am poor"...or "I am happy" I am not making a claim to be God.

However if I were to say "Before Abraham was born, "I AM"....then I would be making the claim to be God...

For I would not just be claiming to be very old, but rather I would be making the claim to the timeless name and nature of the one true God....
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Old 10-11-2009, 11:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
If Jesus was 100% human and 100% God then he was NOT like us...
Jesus IS like us in his humanity, and IS like the Father in his Godhood.

This is taught to us in John 1:1, where the Word that was both with God and WAS God, became flesh.

When the Word (That is God Almighty) became wrapped in human flesh, he never stopped being God.
Jesus was and is now ,always fully 100% God.
But for our salvation the Word became flesh.
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Old 10-11-2009, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
that was one of the charges made against him, but as you should remember, the witnesses did not agree so that point was dropped.

To help you remember why the Jews turned Jesus over to the Romans, just read the part where the High priest rips his clothes....there you have it
I don't know where you get this...

The Messiah, according to the Jews, was a prophet who was to come and lead the Jews in revolt against their captivity to the Romans, as Moses had done. This was to establish God's promise that the Jewish nation would be the greatest.. and the Messiah would rule from the throne of David, yet Jesus said he would destroy the temple so they gathered that he was not the Messiah they were expecting.

Matt 26:59-68
The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for false evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death.
But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward.
Finally two came forward and declared, “This fellow said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.’”
Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ [Messiah], the Son of God.”
“Yes, it is as you say,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”
“He is worthy of death,” they answered.
Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him and said, “Prophesy to us, Christ. Who hit you?”

They determined that he was not the Messiah and spoke blasphemy against the scripture by claiming to be the Messiah... it is telling in that they denounce his ability to prophesy about who hit him...

In Chapter 27, Jesus is asked if he is the "King of the Jews".. that is the accusation from the Romans.. that he intended to lead the Jews to revolt against the Romans. The Romans knew full well the prophecy of the Messiah...
Matt. 27: 22-23 “What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called Christ?” Pilate asked.
They all answered, “Crucify him!”
“Why? What crime has he committed?” asked Pilate.

Obviously Pilate (the Roman Governor) was not intimidated by Jesus' claim to be the Messiah or King of the Jews but it is the crowd that wanted him dead. It is said that Barabbas was a political prisoner, being tried for sedition as was Jesus so that it became a Roman crime not just a crime against the Jews.

If it had been a crime against the Jewish leaders, Pilate would not have gotten involved. It is also interesting to note that Jesus Barabbas means Jesus Son of ABBA... and then we have Jesus, Son of ABBA...... funny... interesting... And also interesting that Pilate looks so nice and kind when in the Jewish histories he is "fired" from his post as governor for making the Roman government look foolish!

In any case... Jesus was not crucified for his claim to be God because he never once claimed to be God... He claimed to be the Son of God and the Messiah... He also agreed that he was the "king of the Jews" but never did he claim to be God...

If you can provide verses where Jesus claimed to be God... that might help my understanding....

Last edited by katjonjj; 10-11-2009 at 11:35 AM..
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Old 10-11-2009, 11:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I don't know where you get this...

.
I have given and posted the verses that I have used to support the trinity.
A person just has to go back and read what I have said to see where I get it.

I have also given verses to support all the things I have said here today.

Lets start with John 1:1....
The WORD was in the beginning
This means that before anything was made, the WORD already was.

The WORD was with God.
This means that there is a difference between the two.
There is the Word, there is the GOD.


the WORD was GOD
This means that the WORD is God Almighty.
That what the God is, so to is the WORD.
That both the WORD and the GOD in John 1;1 have the same nature.


How do I translate this all into more simple words?
"In the beginning, before anything was made, Jesus was already there.
Jesus was with Father, so this means that Jesus is not the father.
and yet at the same time, Jesus is God Almighty.
And this means that God Almighty, the maker of heaven and earth, was born in a little barn over 2000 years ago.
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