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Old 10-11-2009, 12:37 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
yes, this is the basic "Christianity 101" teaching, that Jesus is not the father....

We teach that Jesus is God, the 2nd person of the trinity.
That with the father and the Spirit they are of the same nature, (being the one God in nature)

Anyone that teaches that Jesus is the Father is no Christian.

anyone who thinks that the Christian church teaches that Jesus is the Father is in deepest error...
God is the Father... By saying that Jesus is God you are equating Jesus with the Father... How can you make a distinction between the two when you readily admit that they are ONE? So you say that God the Father is one with God the Son and so God the Son is the same God as God the Father.... Giving God three heads does not make what you say any more plausible... sorry
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Old 10-11-2009, 12:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
God is the Father... By saying that Jesus is God you are equating Jesus with the Father..
yes, this is true,
Jesus and the father are equal in their nature.

Jesus and the Father are different in their positions as to how they relate to each other.

This is how we can learn in John 1:1 that Jesus is GOD, yet later we can see Jesus calls the father as being "greater" than he was.


In nature equal
In position different.


This is the christian message
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Old 10-11-2009, 12:46 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
as I have predicted...LOL

To hate the trinity is to hate the bible as we read it..

That is why people that hate the trinity have to cast doubt on the Bible, because they see clearly the trinity is taught in the Bible...
It doesn't cast doubt on the bible that you believe in the trinity (which it is agreed upon in all sects truly doesn't exist in the bible) but it does cast doubt when kai is translated "he and" without merit.

Take a look at the verse I refer to:

John 8:28 So Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.

John 8:28 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)
εἶπεν οὖν ὁ Ἰησοῦς· ὅταν ὑψώσητε τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, τότε γνώσεσθε ὅτι ἐγὼ εἰμι, καὶ ἀπ’ ἐμαυτοῦ ποιῶ οὐδὲν, ἀλλὰ καθὼς ἐδίδαξεν με ὁ πατὴρ ταῦτα λαλῶ.

The underlined portions correspond to each other... the problem is that there is no "he" in the Greek... just in the translation... where does the "he" come from if you can explain? Perhaps then I can begin to understand why you feel that if Jesus says "I am" that he means "I am God"...

I am having some trouble with that after looking at the Greek and the chapter itself.

The addition of the "he" seems to indicate foul play in the trinity doctrine itself not in the gospel provided by the bible.
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Old 10-11-2009, 12:49 PM
 
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Thats all very interesting...
But can you name me one Bible that does not show us that in John 1:1 the text says that the word was God?

I dont think so....LOL
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Old 10-11-2009, 12:50 PM
 
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just name the Bible that supports an anti-trinity view in John...I got a 4-in-one bible, and a 9-in-one bible, so I got a bunch to compare...LOL
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Old 10-11-2009, 12:54 PM
 
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My advice to the serious Bible student...
Get a bunch of Translations so that you can gather a wide view of the meanings to things found in the Bible.

There are many good Christian bibles that have several translations appearing next to each other.
By the use of a 4-in-one bible like this I am able to see what the different translators have come up with as to what some verses mean.

The use of such a study of the different translations also helps get rid of the chance of error or falling into a problem where one translation is unclear to you.

Each translation will be slightly different, (That was the whole point to them) so you will have a better chance to learn the heart and soul of a text with a wider look at how others have viewed it.

One problem I see is that with some translations, they use a tricky word a person might get tripped up over, and if you dont check it out in other bibles you might end up in error
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Old 10-11-2009, 01:30 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
thats easy...

If I make the claim "I am fat"...or..."I am poor"...or "I am happy" I am not making a claim to be God.

However if I were to say "Before Abraham was born, "I AM"....then I would be making the claim to be God...

For I would not just be claiming to be very old, but rather I would be making the claim to the timeless name and nature of the one true God....
That is a good point to make... It sure appears that Christ is saying he existed before Abraham but let's look at the context to be sure what seems to be really is: (I will interject my comments in blue so you can also answer)

John 8:50-59 (KJV)
50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. Jesus is not seeking his own glory but God's who seeks and judges.

51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. What Jesus is saying is the Word from God himself, so if you keep God's Word you will not die, which is exactly what God said in th OT through Abraham.

52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead (if everyone dies how can Jesus make them not die), and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead ? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? So the question here is "who do you make yourself out to be?"

54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; (Jesus makes himself out to be noone, it is God that makes him greater than all of the previous prophets) of whom ye say, that he is your God:

55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying He is saying that obviously they do not know God or they would know who he is as HE knows who he is. Right?
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day (Matthew 13:17 "For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.) : and he saw it, and was glad (but Abraham was promised, by God, these things and saw the message Jesus is delivering about death, in faith through types such as the sacrifice of Isaac.)

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Here we see the Jews are talking, whether that is the same as the believers before.. I don't really know. Another weird thing about this sentence... why would you have to be 50 years old to have seen Abraham? I think they meant he was too young to have "seen" Abraham as in he could not understand the promises and revelation given to Abraham. The Greek word translated as seen can be to see, perceive, attend to.

58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. They are talking about Jesus' message which he makes clear that is the reason he was sent by God. The message is what they are confused about... They think the promise to Abraham was that they would inherit the land of Israel and be the greatest nation, multiplying substantially. So Christ is saying that even Abraham knew that Jesus was to come because it was planned before Abraham by God. They were upset because Jesus proclaimed to know more than them. Remember he was teaching in the Temple. Some believed in him being sent by God for the gospel but others could not grasp that the gospel would not make them the greatest nation.

59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. We see by verses 30 and 31 of this chapter that Jesus was speaking to those who had just believed in verse 29 but still in the temple among the Pharisees. Is it the Jews that believed (to whom Jesus was speaking) or the Pharisees that were also listening that took up stones?

I cannot see where you get that "I am" in this passage means "I am God," I guess I need more information.
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Old 10-11-2009, 02:05 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
yes, this is true,
Jesus and the father are equal in their nature.

Jesus and the Father are different in their positions as to how they relate to each other.

This is how we can learn in John 1:1 that Jesus is GOD, yet later we can see Jesus calls the father as being "greater" than he was.


In nature equal
In position different.


This is the christian message
Ok... My husband and I are one but two different people. We have the same goals, and mindset in that we work together, YET we are two different people...

I understand the concept however.. as in the husband/wife analogy... they are said to be "one with each other" as Jesus and God are "one with each other" yet we can clearly see that the husband and wife are two separate beings and cannot be "one person" as you see Jesus and God as "one God" in the trinity.

Explain this for my understanding if you will-
God made all things without help as is clear in the OT. There is only one God. God sent Jesus to spread the gospel. Jesus accepted the Holy Spirit into himself (as did the disciples and OT figures) in order to start his ministry and perform miracles. So if we use the trinity we have God sending down God to tell of God's Word (gospel) by accepting God into himself (God) in order to start His miraculous ministry...

I think you get the Word of God and Jesus mixed up...

Tell me what you think of this passage:

Matthew 15:6 (KJV) And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Matthew 15:6 (NIV) he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

Jesus is not the Word of God if he says they nullify the Word of God by not keeping the commandments which are the word of God...

The same word "Logos" is used here for word and commandment... How then is Jesus the "Logos"? The definition of Logos itself is a word or idea not a person. If we apply the same meaning as is here to that of the Word of God (logos) in John 1, then the trinity does not exist... The word of God is the Message and Jesus (as were all the HUMAN prophets before him) carried the message that was not of himself but of his FATHER, GOD.
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Old 10-11-2009, 02:07 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,413,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Thats all very interesting...
But can you name me one Bible that does not show us that in John 1:1 the text says that the word was God?

I dont think so....LOL
The word was God.... God's word, word of God...I have no argument with that.

Show me a bible that says the WORD is Jesus...

It is your idea that the Word is Jesus, I am under no such delusion.
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Old 10-11-2009, 02:09 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,413,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
just name the Bible that supports an anti-trinity view in John...I got a 4-in-one bible, and a 9-in-one bible, so I got a bunch to compare...LOL
Like I said... I have no problem with the word of God being God or the Spirit of God being God.

Where is there a bible that says Jesus is the Word (logos)... I don't see it.
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