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Old 04-09-2013, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Capital Hill
1,602 posts, read 2,632,599 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elder James III View Post
Rev. Fredrick Augustus Ross (1796-1883), an unrepentent apologist for the Slavocracy, asserted in his book Slavery Ordained of God that God had empowered Anglo-Saxons to enslave Africans as a connection between the highest and lowest races of men, "revealing influences which may be, and will be, most benevolent for the ultimate good of the master and the slave." Caiaphas, the Jewish high priest, schemed to have Jesus murdered to save Israel from a supposed threat of annihilation by the Romans (Jn. 11:45-52). And Joseph, who rose to become second to the Pharaoh in Egypt, was sold into slavery by his brothers (Gen. 37:1-36). In all these narratives, Ross, Caiaphas and the brothers of Joseph, God evidently had a hidden agenda that would bring glory to Him and advance His kingdom.

If a literal interpretation of Isaiah 45:5-8 is taken, as is my inclination, it can be confidently stated that God ordained American slavery, the scheming of Caiaphas and the sale of Joseph by his brothers. But God hates sin (Zech 8:17) and most observers would agree that American slavery, the sale of Joseph and the murder of Jesus, in contrast to their noble results, were sinful enterprises. Consequently, even though on most good days I am somewhat right of center on this question, I am too often painfully conflicted and therefore openly seeking to be enlightened.

Could the solution be in a paradox waiting by providential design to be revealed later (1 Cor 13:12)? Should our faith be hindered merely because we cannot grasp all we desire to know about Him (Isaiah 55:9)? Should Christians become combative toward other Believers who disagree on some minor points of interpretation? Did God or did He not, based on exegetical arguments, ordain American Slavery?
I don't think God 'ordained' any form of slavery, however, from the Old Testiment through the New Testiment we know that there was slavery. Jesus and his deciples instructs to be kind to your slaves and to the slaves, obey your masters.
Doing away with slavery is a new concept, brought on with the forming of this nation where all are 'free'. This is the forming of the 'middle class' society. In the very ancient dark ages of Europe, there was never any middle class. You were either a nobleman who owned vast estates of property and castles. Peasants and serfs were part of the nobleman's property. The larger his estate which included these peasants and serfs, the more powerful he was. Probably a serf was treated worse then the American South treated their slaves. The chruch, wheather it was Catholic, Orthodox Catholic, or Protesent always supported the nobleman.
This form of government continued until the communist revolution. After the revolution, the noblemen were murdered but the people still were serfs, -just to new leaders. So, you can say, slavery has lasted far longer in Europe then it has in America.
At this moment I'm reading James Michener's 'Poland', which gives you a pretty good idea about slavery and serfdom.

 
Old 04-10-2013, 04:38 AM
 
Location: Detroit, MI
62 posts, read 76,454 times
Reputation: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinylly View Post
I don't think God 'ordained' any form of slavery, however, from the Old Testiment through the New Testiment we know that there was slavery. Jesus and his deciples instructs to be kind to your slaves and to the slaves, obey your masters.
Doing away with slavery is a new concept, brought on with the forming of this nation where all are 'free'. This is the forming of the 'middle class' society. In the very ancient dark ages of Europe, there was never any middle class. You were either a nobleman who owned vast estates of property and castles. Peasants and serfs were part of the nobleman's property. The larger his estate which included these peasants and serfs, the more powerful he was. Probably a serf was treated worse then the American South treated their slaves. The chruch, wheather it was Catholic, Orthodox Catholic, or Protesent always supported the nobleman.
This form of government continued until the communist revolution. After the revolution, the noblemen were murdered but the people still were serfs, -just to new leaders. So, you can say, slavery has lasted far longer in Europe then it has in America.
At this moment I'm reading James Michener's 'Poland', which gives you a pretty good idea about slavery and serfdom.
Not to quibble over semantics but would you agree that God predestined slavery? More broadly can God and does He ever ordain or predestine anything in the earth? How do you interpret John 1:1-5 as it might relate to these questions?

As for the church always supporting slavery I suggest there are a few churches in history that condemned slavery; the northern branch of the Methodists and Presbyterians during the antebellum period comes to mind (at least some of them did). John Brown, the White abolitionist who was hanged by the state of Virginia for trying to organize a slave rebellion was a devout Calvinist.....quite likely of the Puritan persuasion even though some Puritans owned slaves during that period.

Times have not changed very much in the churches since the writing of John 2:1-3:22; we still have some work to do before He comes back. Amen?

God bless.
 
Old 04-10-2013, 05:53 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,569,905 times
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I wish this thread would die simply because I am tired of reading the title at the top of the pile which I find offensive.

Also, it really doesn't fall under the topic of Christianity - it probably should have been posted in 'Philosophy' IMO.
 
Old 04-10-2013, 09:24 AM
 
Location: Capital Hill
1,602 posts, read 2,632,599 times
Reputation: 839
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elder James III View Post
Not to quibble over semantics but would you agree that God predestined slavery? More broadly can God and does He ever ordain or predestine anything in the earth? How do you interpret John 1:1-5 as it might relate to these questions?

As for the church always supporting slavery I suggest there are a few churches in history that condemned slavery; the northern branch of the Methodists and Presbyterians during the antebellum period comes to mind (at least some of them did). John Brown, the White abolitionist who was hanged by the state of Virginia for trying to organize a slave rebellion was a devout Calvinist.....quite likely of the Puritan persuasion even though some Puritans owned slaves during that period.

Times have not changed very much in the churches since the writing of John 2:1-3:22; we still have some work to do before He comes back. Amen?

God bless.
That's a hard question to answer. However, since I attend a Presbyterian Church, I was told that the Presbyterians in the south were very supportive of slavery and that God ordained it. I say slavery in this country is a carry-over from European cultures while the peasants and serfs wanted to escape slavery in europe for freedom and equality in America. This is a complex issue, obviously one of the flaws of mankind.
 
Old 04-10-2013, 12:15 PM
 
Location: Detroit, MI
62 posts, read 76,454 times
Reputation: 29
Default A Few More Rivers to Cross

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinylly View Post
That's a hard question to answer. However, since I attend a Presbyterian Church, I was told that the Presbyterians in the south were very supportive of slavery and that God ordained it. I say slavery in this country is a carry-over from European cultures while the peasants and serfs wanted to escape slavery in europe for freedom and equality in America. This is a complex issue, obviously one of the flaws of mankind.
I agree wholeheartedly. The organized church is not perfect....., not even close. Which reminds me that I made a typo in quoting the Scripture in my last post. It should have been Revelation 2:1-3:22 concerning the seven imperfect churches of Asia. Bad news indeed! But the good news is that we can always repent (1 John 1:1-10).

Presbyterians have done much to promote racial harmony in America. I have visited Ward Presbyterian Church here in the Detroit area many times. Everyone always make me feel welcome and some have even invited me to become a member. We don't always agree on where to put the semicolons and exclamation marks in our theology but I am confident that God will work all of that out when we see Him face to face.

Keep the Faith and keep all of our fellow Christians in your prayers!
 
Old 04-10-2013, 12:43 PM
 
Location: Capital Hill
1,602 posts, read 2,632,599 times
Reputation: 839
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elder James III View Post
I agree wholeheartedly. The organized church is not perfect....., not even close. Which reminds me that I made a typo in quoting the Scripture in my last post. It should have been Revelation 2:1-3:22 concerning the seven imperfect churches of Asia. Bad news indeed! But the good news is that we can always repent (1 John 1:1-10).

Presbyterians have done much to promote racial harmony in America. I have visited Ward Presbyterian Church here in the Detroit area many times. Everyone always make me feel welcome and some have even invited me to become a member. We don't always agree on where to put the semicolons and exclamation marks in our theology but I am confident that God will work all of that out when we see Him face to face.

Keep the Faith and keep all of our fellow Christians in your prayers!
Your post just reminded me of another issue which at present is most important with the Presbyterian Churches USA. Does God ordain homosexuality? If you read the Bible, it's a very sinful act, yet the Prsbyterian USA does allow homosexual/lesbian ministers. This issue is breaking the church up when they should be uniting. Although I like the minister, who gives some of the most inpirational sermons in the city and it's members are very caring and friendly, I will not join because they have not made a commitment on this issue. Presbyterian USA is losing membership over this issue. Pres. America, and Evangical Order of Pres. are gaining membership.
 
Old 04-12-2013, 03:41 PM
 
Location: Detroit, MI
62 posts, read 76,454 times
Reputation: 29
Default A few More Rivers to Cross

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinylly View Post
Your post just reminded me of another issue which at present is most important with the Presbyterian Churches USA. Does God ordain homosexuality? If you read the Bible, it's a very sinful act, yet the Prsbyterian USA does allow homosexual/lesbian ministers. This issue is breaking the church up when they should be uniting. Although I like the minister, who gives some of the most inpirational sermons in the city and it's members are very caring and friendly, I will not join because they have not made a commitment on this issue. Presbyterian USA is losing membership over this issue. Pres. America, and Evangical Order of Pres. are gaining membership.
First allow me to say that the Presbyterians, Methodists and Southern Baptists have all repented and apologized for their roles in supporting the Slavocracy. The Southern Baptist Conference (SBC) has even elected an African American president for the first time in its history. The Baptists have also intensified their efforts to reclaim their tradition as the model for world evangelism. May God abundantly bless them, the Evangelical Presbyterians and all others who have accepted a calling to enlarge the Kingdom!!!

I absolutely believe without exception that God ordains all things (Isaiah 45:5-8)!!! I believe with equal intensity that God chose the Saints in Him before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:3-4) and that His ministers are obligated, at the risk of compromising their salvation, to obey the tenets of the Great Commission (John 21:14-17). For me the two Scriptures do not pose a "if one is valid then the other must be invalid" problem. They both have equal validity or otherwise they would not be in the Bible in such explicit terms. But they do pose a paradox to the extent, for me, I cannot embrace any theology that glorifies one and dismisses the other (2 Timothy 3:16). My conclusion is that these seemingly contrary Scriptures (think Calvinists vs Arminians) are working together in unity and harmony in ways that my finite mind cannot comprehend (Isaiah 55:8). To state my convictions another way, I can usually fellowship with Christians of other theological persuasions until they feel obligated to convert me to their way of thinking. It is not that I have reached full maturity in these matters...... that is not possible. It is more like I have resolved to avoid everyone, and there are many, who claim access to a proprietary path to Heaven.

Come let us reason together!!!

God did not design us with the ability to discern the false confessors of faith in Him from the true Believers. That is why He instructs us to let the wheat and the tares grow together so He can correctly separate them at the Second Advent (think the seven churches of Asia). On the other hand every person born into the world since Adam ate of the apple, so to speak, is by divine decree a sinner. No exceptions, no exclusions and no excuses. We all are sinners until we repent of our Adamic heritage and accept Jesus Christ as our Redeemer. That brings me to your rhetorical question about homosexuality.

The men who tried to break into Lot's house in order to carnally know the male visitors (angels) who were inside were struck with blindness after refusing an offer to take his two daughters instead and threatening to do violence to him and his household (Genesis 19:1-13 NKJV).

Does God ordain homosexuality? Is homosexuality a sin? What is a sin? Can unrepentant sinners inherit eternal life? These are questions that must be personally resolved in the heart of every Believer. The one thing that I can say without fear of contradiction, however, is that God will eventually send us back to the potters house (think the Civil War) if we persist in making a mockery of "In God We Trust" as our motto. Is God not angry with the wicked everyday?

I applaud you for holding to your convictions. Remember also that Christians will always be smaller in number but still mightier in strength in confrontations with our Adversary.

Our calling is to serve, to sacrifice and to suffer in the earth so that we may reign with Him in eternity. American slavery and the bloody Theological War (1861-65) were instruments of corporate purging for slaves and tyrants. How much longer will He allow us to malign His name in the eyes of the infidels before He prescribes another does of His instructive wrath. Is it certain that we as a nation will survive the next time.

Keep the Faith!
 
Old 04-29-2013, 10:18 PM
 
Location: Detroit, MI
62 posts, read 76,454 times
Reputation: 29
Default Come Let s Reason Together!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elder James III View Post
I absolutely believe without exception that God ordains all things (Isaiah 45:5-8)!!! I believe with equal intensity that God chose the Saints in Him before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:3-4) and that His ministers are obligated, at the risk of compromising their salvation, to obey the tenets of the Great Commission (John 21:14-17). For me the two Scriptures do not pose a "if one is valid then the other must be invalid" problem. They both have equal validity or otherwise they would not be in the Bible in such explicit terms. But they do pose a paradox to the extent, for me, I cannot embrace any theology that glorifies one and dismisses the other (2 Timothy 3:16). My conclusion is that these seemingly contrary Scriptures (think Calvinists vs Arminians) are working together in unity and harmony in ways that my finite mind cannot comprehend (Isaiah 55:8). To state my convictions another way, I can usually fellowship with Christians of other theological persuasions until they feel obligated to convert me to their way of thinking. It is not that I have reached full maturity in these matters...... that is not possible. It is more like I have resolved to avoid everyone, and there are many, who claim access to a proprietary path to Heaven.

Come let us reason together!!!
Keep the Faith!
If it is also ordained (predestined) that I must be counted among the spiritually (politically) naive citizens of this great country in order to implore a few of the realistic (wise) ones to put their hands to the plow for the benefit of our nation, then so be it. But I prayerfully hope that God will allow me to discern the approach of some of my more dangerous adversaries.

In the meantime we must decide if God wants America to be the land of the free who does as it wishes by virtue of its economic might and military prowess or the land of the free who does as it ought for the benefit of others. Exploitation or benevolence? Which is more pleasing to God?

Selah!
 
Old 05-16-2013, 11:44 AM
 
Location: Detroit, MI
62 posts, read 76,454 times
Reputation: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
I wish this thread would die simply because I am tired of reading the title at the top of the pile which I find offensive.

Also, it really doesn't fall under the topic of Christianity - it probably should have been posted in 'Philosophy' IMO.
When He had come into His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished and said, "Where did this Man get this wisdom and these mighty works?"

"Is this not the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon and Judas?

"And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?"

So they were offended at Him. But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his
own country and in his own house." Matthew 13:54-57. NKJV



I don't recall being consulted or invited to give my opinion on how or where this thread should be posted on the City-Data Forum. Up until recently, in fact, I had not paid too much attention to the notations at the top of the "pile" (to use a metaphor or recent vintage). But now that the matter has been brought to my attention in such a dramatic way, I believe I can see, historically and HisStorically speaking, how a few people might be offended by the way this thread has been managed.

This attitude, however, is not new. It was alive and prospering during the time of our Redeemer's ministry on earth. It was especially prevalent among the tyrants during the Antebellum period of our history. It is evident today in the way our President is maligned about the place of his birth, in how women are treated in the military and in how some politicians can symbolically stand over the caskets of twenty massacred babies and rail against legislation to keep assault rifles out of the heads of insane people.

Please do not misinterpret my words! Please do not do that! My anger is aroused just as much, perhaps even more so, by the events surrounding the practices of the abortion doctor recently sentenced to life for killing babies born alive by snipping their spinal chords. It would not displease me or arouse even an ounce of pity for this monster to know that he will spend the rest of his life listening to the pleas of those babies to spare their lives! If he repents and accept Jesus Christ as his personal Savior, of course, that would change everything. It would be a time for rejoicing (Luke 15:7).

That brings me to the vitriolic choice of words in your post. To the extent that your anger was directed at least in part towards the subject of the thread, I am inviting you to engage with me in a dialogue on our possibly similarly constituted theologies. This is not sarcasm on my part. I am being sincere in that I noticed your implied sympathy for Christianity by suggestion this thread should be posted elsewhere.

What specific part of this thread do you find offensive? Did you read the initial post?

It could be, Heartsong, that we have something in common that is being approached from diametrically assigned positions. But even if you have already decided that we irreconcilably are adversaries, I still would like to know what you believe and how you developed those beliefs about Christianity.

Or did I miss the point of your post?

God bless. Keep the faith.
 
Old 06-04-2013, 03:49 PM
 
Location: Detroit, MI
62 posts, read 76,454 times
Reputation: 29
Default For the Benefit of Women and Other Minorities!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elder James III View Post
Because I am not very skilled in the art of sophistry, polemics and disingenuous semantics, I often feel at a great disadvantage when discussing my "theology" with others who have diametrically opposite beliefs to those of my own. That is not the case with you, of course, knowing as I do that your intentions are purely to enlighten the beguiled Believers among us. To be more specific, out of respect for your convictions, I still admire your efforts to share the deeper blessings of God's message to His people as you interpret it. To the extent that your efforts will bring sinners into His saving grace and Believers to a closer relationship with Him, you will always have my admiration and endorsement. Beyond that, however, it would be inappropriate to pretend that our theologies could either be reconciled or that either one of us might possibly embrace the convictions of the other (speaking for myself of course).

For the record, and I cannot say it more emphatically, my regard for radical Calvinists is no more or less than my admiration for implacable Arminians (to use two of the most prominent advocates of opposing theologies). The Great Commission and the doctrine of predestination, for me, result from different perspectives of the same proclamation; they are mutually dependent instead of mutually exclusive. I can say this because I believe II Timothy 3:16. Why would God allow His word, or any small part of it, to be invalidated by his creatures whose sole intent is to make themselves appear more spiritual in the eyes of gullible followers? Selah.

The American War of Theologies (1861-65), also known as the American Civil War, is still being waged on a smaller scale in America. Those of us who do not believe the sacrifices of the martyrs in the first conflict and the theological conflicts that arose in its wake should be forgotten or discounted are dedicated to making "In God We Trust" a fulfilled prophecy instead of an empty slogan.

Join us if this challenge resonates with your spirit!!!

God bless.

P.S. A point to ponder: Did God have a plan of salvation on His agenda, i.e., was Christ destined to die on the Cross, before He created man?
I am hopeful that my pleas, perhaps babblings to some, have persuaded some readers of this thread that the tinges left on America's social, political and spiritual ethos by the Theological War (1861-65) and its causes, are still prominently on exhibit and in urgent need of some radically corrective surgery. Consider, for example, a recent conversation aired on MSNBC involving some female members of a group who less than twenty years ago were referred to as "women and other minorities."

The discussion seemed to be centered around the treatment of women in the military spiced with liberal use of pronouns (he, him, they, their, us, we, etc). One of the ladies said something to the effect that the next thing on "their" agenda might be legislation to keep "us" from voting. For the sake of propriety and prudence I will only say that these ladies seemed more to be sharing a private joke than revealing any concerns for their spiritual or political welfare.

I will leave it to the astute readers of this thread, if there be any concerned about such matters, to connect the political dots in this matter. As for me, I feel obligated to suggest that Providence could very well be on the verge of offering the tyrants in America an opportunity to disown all of the objectives of slavery and the Civil War as envisioned by those who fired the first shots in Charleston Harbor and to become ambassadors of thankfulness for the unique blessings God has wrought in and promised to America.

Our hallowed slogan "In God We Trust" is not compatible with the shameless dissembling being offered by so many of our powerful denizens who are still angry about the events at Appomattox in April of 1865. He is even angrier with those who are indifferent to the slaughter of babies in the womb. Selah.

"If My people who are called by my name would humble themselves,.......... (2 Chronicles 7:14." So Whose country is this anyway?

Keep the faith.
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