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Old 03-30-2010, 07:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elder James III View Post

The first abducted Africans, two dozen or so, arrived in Jamestown in 1619 on an English warship named the White Lion under the command of Reverend John Colyn Jope, a Calvinist Minister. Actually the involuntary immigrants were twice abducted, first in Angola by a Portuguese raiding party and then again in Gulf of Mexico while enroute to Vera Cruz on a slave ship named the San Juan Bautista (Saint John the Baptist) under the command of Captain Manuel Mendes de Acuna. Captain Acuna's ship was attacked by the White Lion and another ship named the Treasurer under the command of Captain Daniel Elfrith. Some of Captain Acuna's slave cargo was transferred to the White Lion and the Treasurer with Captain Jope arriving at Jamestown a few days ahead of Elfrith to trade his pirated captives for food and supplies.

Whatever the case, I am absolutely certain the Hand of God was at work in the matter whenever the first Africans arrived just as was the case when the Europeans first arrived. He always leaves His fingerprints as visible aids to those who rejoice in diligently studying His Story in contrast to merely reading history (John 8:32).



God bless! Keep the Faith!
Correct me if I'm wrong...but...I believe that to ordain is different from to allow? God allowed the American slavery and all forms of slavery/bondage to exist for a time, just as he allowed Joseph to be sold and be God's instrument in saving his people from physical hunger. The end result is still the same...in accordance to his divine plan. IMHO

Blessings...

 
Old 05-08-2010, 09:41 PM
 
Location: Detroit, MI
62 posts, read 76,778 times
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Default A Matter of Semantics Only?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ans57 View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong...but...I believe that to ordain is different from to allow? God allowed the American slavery and all forms of slavery/bondage to exist for a time, just as he allowed Joseph to be sold and be God's instrument in saving his people from physical hunger. The end result is still the same...in accordance to his divine plan. IMHO

Blessings...
It would be presumptuous, speaking only for myself, to try to correct your reminder that the terms "to ordain" and "to allow" have different meanings. A case could possibly be made, I suppose, that the divine birthing of an event could be classified as being caused, allowed, ordained, spoken into existence and a few other ways. I would like to suggest, however, that examining the end product, the event(s), will not give us any clues as to how they came into existence, i.e., the mind of God at the time of their design. That is why, in my opinion, we as individuals often embrace different conclusions when we try to explain the purpose of His works. This is neither accidental nor necessarily detrimental to our salvation; it keeps us from being proud in imagining that we have a path to God that is not available to less perceptive people. But I digress.

I would like to invite your attention to Isaiah 45:5-8 as a better resolution to the issue you have raised. At least that would be a good starting point. It certainly works for me. My question "Did God Ordain American Slavery?" is an extension of that Scripture. But the question also could have been "Did God Allow American Slavery?" without changing its meaning or purpose.

As beautifully nuanced as the Greek of the New and the Hebrew of the Old Testaments may have been, according to some scholars on such matters, I do not believe either alone or in combination is sufficient for conveying to our finite minds the thoughts and intentions of the Infinite One in any way. I would suggest that the English language, perhaps providentially so, is singularly inadequate for this purpose.

With that in mind, being in total agreement with everything you have said, allow me to expand my original question to "Did God Allow or Ordain America Slavery to Help Prepare Our Nation to Be a Fortress for Evangelism in the Earth?" If the answer is yes, on the premise that charity must start at home, should we as Americans not be living epistles and first partakers of His grace (II Chronicles. 7:14, Matthew, John 21:10-19)?

God bless you and your ministry! Your comments are greatly appreciated.
 
Old 05-09-2010, 12:22 AM
 
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The slave business in America was ended back in 65 (1865), so I'm not sure why this should be such a serious topic. I don't care to get side tracked on such issues, but want to help those who might have trouble dealing with it, even though it hasn't been here in a long time.

Jesus came to save sinners. To set men free. Their social status can not set them free. Only Jesus sets people free!

Jesus did not come to create uphoria on Earth. He came to lead us from this world, along a straight and narrow passage, unto the heavenly city, the New Jerusalem. His path of deliverance is not the underground railroad, rather it is the highway of holiness!

Did God allow, or ordain? Be sure that before the foundation of the world He ordered that all who come unto Jesus and stay faithfully unto the end will be saved. God wants people saved! Focus on the mission ordained by God.

God gave the slaves and the slave traders time to repent. All have sinned and come short of His glory.

Freedom can not be legislated. Holiness can not be legislated. Freedom and righteousness can only be granted by God through His gift of faith in Jesus Christ.

We can't possibly create organizations which will set people free. We can't create finacial wealth that will set people free. We can't set anyone free with modern medicine. We can't set people free by starting a war, though that sort of thing will get a lot of people killed.

So give it up and turn to Jesus! Get on them knees and pray and repent. Turn to Jesus with all your heart, soul, mind, and body! You will be so glad, that by His grace you do, if you do. If you don't, woe will be unto you!

Put down the civil rights training manual and pick up the gospel! Tell people that only Jesus can set them free. That liberty is Jesus Christ. That soldiers in the army of the Lord do not entangle themselves with the affairs of this world. Come to the blood of Jesus. Drink it freely. Eat His flesh given for our sins. His word is life and spirit.
 
Old 05-19-2010, 12:33 AM
 
Location: Detroit, MI
62 posts, read 76,778 times
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Default His Story Is a Serious Topic

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForHimByHim View Post
The slave business in America was ended back in 65 (1865), so I'm not sure why this should be such a serious topic. I don't care to get side tracked on such issues, but want to help those who might have trouble dealing with it, even though it hasn't been here in a long time.
Put down the civil rights training manual and pick up the gospel! Tell people that only Jesus can set them free. That liberty is Jesus Christ. That soldiers in the army of the Lord do not entangle themselves with the affairs of this world. Come to the blood of Jesus. Drink it freely. Eat His flesh given for our sins. His word is life and spirit.
As slavery in America relates to history, I must agree with you in the sense that it ought not to be a serious topic for discussion; it too often leaves an unpleasant taste in everyone's mouth. But as it relates to His Story, it is more difficult for me to accept your suggestion. Here is my issue: the tragedy that precipitated the Civil War still tinges the spiritual, political and cultural fabric of America,............it did not disappear when the practice of robbing another man of his labor to secure wealth was outlawed. But I digress.

Since American History is saturated with diametrically conflicting portraits of slavery, some emphasizing its benevolent exposure of a pagan people to Christianity while others dwell on its barbarically horrific nature. His Story, on the other hand, contains a few paradoxes but not one contradiction. I can come to only two conclusions. First I can not rely on the opinions of the historians or political pundits of any persuasion (I frequently wonder if politicians believe themselves). Secondly, racism, slavery, crime, political duplicity, etc., are not the problem. They and all other things detrimental to the spiritual security of mankind are symptoms and consequences of the problem; the problem is sin and its only remedy is the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

You and I, my fellow Christian, agree that the salvation of man can never be found in social solutions. And, with some qualifications, I suspect, we might even agree on what being entangled in the affairs of the world really means. For the time being, I will merely say I do not desire that the seeds entrusted to me should fall on stony ground. It seems preferable to me, in keeping with the tenets of the Great Commission, to do as much teaching as His grace will enable me to do before extending an invitation to become a joint partaker of the Covenant with me. In fact, now that I reflect on the matter a little, it could very well be someone else that God has ordained to extend the invitation.

May He continue to bless you, your family and your ministry.
 
Old 06-07-2012, 03:07 AM
 
Location: Detroit, MI
62 posts, read 76,778 times
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Thanks to those who have been visiting this thread. I will be making some new posts and hopefully some responses within the week. God bless!
 
Old 06-07-2012, 04:15 AM
 
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God did not ordain slavery. U cannot discern the Word of God properly without the Spirt.... According to the Bible there is one flesh common to man. It does not matter what color of that flesh is, where that flesh was born or who that flesh was born to. Furthermore, the Bible says God created man in HIS own image and gave him dominion over the earth and some other stuff, but other men. Adam didn't have dominion over Eve... They were both created free NOT enslaved by God... not even enslaved to sin in the beginning. Jesus preached liberty- freedom from the lowest to the highest. His Kingdom is one that flesh and blood cannot inherit... and "where the Spirit of the Lord is there is Liberty" God is not a respecter of persons... HE sent his son to redeem, pay the price, take the punishment for humanity: Greek, Jew, Gentile, Black, White and all the colors in between, male, female, old and young alike as well as the good, the bad and the ugly too. God looks at the heart of mankind not the color of the skin. A mind or a soul who could conceive the mere possibility of such a diabolical belief that God "ordained American slavery" has erred in the scriptures and grossly misunderstood the Character and Love of God in my opinion. Respectfully speaking of course
 
Old 06-07-2012, 05:06 AM
 
951 posts, read 802,327 times
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This is a personal response and does not reflect any teachings that I have received on the subject but rather through personal study on the subject.

Slavery is not a sin!

Kidnapping is a sin. Murder is a sin. Sabbath-breaking is a sin. Adultery is a sin. Homosexuality is a sin. Witchcraft is a sin.......

But Slavery is not a sin.

God has specific laws regarding the treatment of slaves in the scriptures and even the Apostle Paul gives instructions.

The real question comes down to: "Why would God allow slavery?"

The reason is that if you will not serve God then God will allow you to be taken captive and let others rule over you will rigor as punishment for not obeying and worshiping the true God.

And if you believe the prophecies in the Bible then that is precisely what is going to happen to our nation (USA) because of all our sins and abominations before God.

We will be taken captive (those who survive the coming nuclear holocaust) and made slaves because we refuse to serve God.

Plain and simple. God corrects in love even though the punishment seems harsh at times.
 
Old 06-07-2012, 08:47 AM
 
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From my understanding, the "slavery" talked about in the Scriptures is different than what many now think of it due to America's tainted history in the slave trade.

Back then, it was as a form of employment and actually beneficial. Many "slaves" were taken care of.

If you think about it, things haven't changed all that much. Aren't we really now considered "slaves" to our employers, especially in corporate America? That might be stretching the analogy.
 
Old 06-07-2012, 09:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Consideration of what is meant by the term: 'to ordain' is obviously crucial to understanding the problem. I am of the understanding that 'to ordain' basically means 'to authorize' - 'to sanction' or 'to empower.'

If God did not authorize American slavery, could it have happened? If God is truly sovereign, the answer must be in the negative.

We know that certain creatures are capable of committing sin - however, they can only commit the sin that God authorizes, sanctions or empowers them to commit.

Why did God authorize American slavery? Why does God authorize sin of any kind? This all leads to the great age old problem/mystery of evil, doesn't it. I, for one, take great comfort in the fact that the greatest theological minds in all of history have been perplexed by this very question. At least I'm in good company.
Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

All things work together for good to them that love God and are called according to his purpose. Not all things are working together for good for everyone, but only those called that love God.

We know it rains on the just and unjust. Testing for the just is trying the faith. Raining on the unjust could simply be God's wrath.

So all of this in accordance to American slavery, in God's sovereignty he did allow this to occur or it wouldn't have ever happend. Why?

Isaiah 55:7-9

7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.


To say God "condones" slavery is stretching the concept that he allowed others to do it. As the potter makes the clay. Some vessels are prepared with longsuffering for destruction the Scriptures say.

In the end, God will get the glory. Either we will be vessels of his mercy or vessels of his wrath. << And the latter is a terrifying reality.
 
Old 06-07-2012, 01:59 PM
 
Location: Detroit, MI
62 posts, read 76,778 times
Reputation: 29
In the end, God will get the glory. Either we will be vessels of his mercy or vessels of his wrath. << And the latter is a terrifying reality.[/quote]

Amen! My thoughts exactly! Your comments in both posts deeply resonate with my spirit. I personally see a reflection of the exploitative attitudes and duplicity of the 19th century tyrants in the behavior and shamelessness of the would-be tyrants of today. Here are some observations you might also want to comment on:
(1) All persons and all people, without exception, not unlike the things visited upon our Redeemer during His earthly ministry, MUST suffer public purging before they are permitted to be a blessing to His people. Untested parties are given NO consideration for employment. Men might have meant slavery for evil but God demonstrably meant it for good.
(2) Isaiah 45:5-8 and 1 John 1:5 are equally true (Timothy 3:16) both literally and in all of their implications. There are no contradictions. Paradoxes, if any, as well as all other Biblical precepts that are the subject of heated debate, will be resolved when we see Him face to face.
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