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Old 06-10-2012, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Someplace Wonderful
5,170 posts, read 3,727,230 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VelcroQueen View Post
There are probably few peoples more enslaved than common Americans. We begged for slavery, we worked hard for slavery, and we are enslaved.

We Americans in the U.S. are in debt. We are in debt because we had to have everything right now. What my generation and before worked hard for, waited for, applied ourselves to, the younger generation had to have right now, so they used the credit cards that credit companies supplied to high school seniors, who had no reasoning power to realize that they would end up paying $100 for that $10 hamburger meal they bought with a card -- by the magic of debt, interest, penalties, and debt consolidation.

Biblical salvery within Israel was also a mode of employment for those who were not self-employed, so they served a master.

Have a job? You are enslaved, and you'd better be glad you are. Suck it up and give it your best. Freedom is costly.
You are generally correct in many of your observations. In ancient times the victors of wars carried off into slavery the survivors among the defeated. Those people became slaves but most likely eventually became integrated in one way or another into the fabric of the society of their masters. Something I was surprised to learn was that not all Jews returned to their homeland when Cyrus released them. There was a thriving Jewish community in Babylon long afterwords, including one of the two greatest rabbinical scholars of the period immediately prior to the public life of Jesus.

As for one of your other points, the free market view is that we as individuals sell our labor in a free market transaction. When the fruits of our labor (our wages) are confiscated by whomever, then we are forced to give our labor to some third party.The question to all of us is at what point do we become slaves to those who confiscate the fruits of our labor, be it church or state?

I like to think that there is a price of admission to be paid to those who choose to belong to any community, be it church or state. But when that price of admission exceeds the fair value received in return, then we should question it. Contributing to one's church is a time honored tradition. Being forced physically or psychologically to contribute more than one's fair share is slavery. IMHO

 
Old 06-10-2012, 09:53 AM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,589 posts, read 10,320,497 times
Reputation: 9271
Great - lets blame that one on GOD...who came up with this theological theory? God does condone parasitic behavior among insects and other lower life forms--But he does not like human parasites..It's kind of a cannibalism when one person sucks the life blood out of another to have the "good life"....


Classic servitude is not a bad thing- Master slave relationships are supposed to be equal --believe it or not. Scriptural doctrine has it if he master is stupid and corrupt...That the most righteous slave will rule the house hold...things get turned around....Those who enslave--which is different than proper service or being a servant...end up the slave.

It is the masters job to make sure his servants are loved and taken care of- that the children of the slaves are educated..that they have opportunity to escape their indentured existence. It is like a feudal system when it is proper..a two way street occurs...If the master is cruel and abuses his position- he loses the loyalty of the servants and thus loses his power- Many grand families have heirs who just after a few generations are on welfare- They fall from grace- corruption- habitual drinking...and general lack of diligence and duty.


Rich is not forever nor is poor- servitude is not for ever nor is the role of master. Being of noble mind does not mean being an abuser- it means that you generate power to all- and in return maintain power.


As for saying that God ordained slavery that is a crock- It is like Saint Paul the ambitious sell out saying...Governments are put in place by GOD and thus are to be obeyed---This is a lie- GOD does not install bad governance - corrupt men do....If you have great ability and great talent- that you can create art and music as well as wage successful war- YOU can be a master- because your gifts are to be shared and delivered to your lessors.

If you have power and do not know how to use it- and do not care and you ruin a nation- revolution that is bloodless or bloody will remove you naturally- Todays masters had grand fathers that were former slaves_ Be careful ...if you act like a jerk- You too can have chains- even golden ones.
 
Old 06-10-2012, 10:26 AM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,936,867 times
Reputation: 255
[quote=Oleg Bach;24681071]Great - lets blame that one on GOD...who came up with this theological theory?

As for saying that God ordained slavery that is a crock- quote]

RESPONSE:

Perhaps you should read Leviticus?

Lev 25:1-2,44-46 "The Lord spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai, saying: Speak to the people of Israel and say to them.......As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property."
 
Old 06-10-2012, 10:50 AM
 
Location: West Coast USA
1,577 posts, read 1,781,217 times
Reputation: 3134
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
And why do you think the younger generation is this way? Could it be the generation before (yours..the parents) allowed it to happen? Who spoiled this generation and gave them an example to follow?



That may be the modern name. But I call it greed and ignorance. A lot of people are slaves to the government and they don`t even realize it. The more power we give to the government, the stronger it becomes. The more we become dependent on the government for the necessities of life, the more we become dependent on them to take care of us. Slowly over years, a generation of slaves to the governemnt is formed. All disguised as help and honorable. So we vote people into office who promise us free stuff. Again, in the guise of being good. But that is how it works. People are duped into believing they are being helped. Which for a generation or two, may seem like a good thing. But one day, we will wake up and realized what has happened. The sad part is..it`s through our ignorance and selfisheness that we ALLOW it to happen.

It`s just not individual Americans who are slaves to either government or big business. Our contry as a whole is so far in debt, it is doubtful it can ever be repaid. So our country in turn becomes a slave to the owners of our debt. But we as individuals don`t care. We just want to keep on spending. It was greed and ignorance that brought slavery to America and it`s greed and ignorance that is her downfall. This young country will crumble from within, just like the mighty nations before her. Not in our lifetime and maybe not in our children`s. But eventually I believe it will happen.Thank God, he is in control and not man.
Absolutely -- to all your points. One canot make, or should not try to make, all points in one post, and I did not. You are absolutely right. Scarily so.
 
Old 06-10-2012, 10:51 AM
 
Location: West Coast USA
1,577 posts, read 1,781,217 times
Reputation: 3134
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckmann View Post
You are generally correct in many of your observations. In ancient times the victors of wars carried off into slavery the survivors among the defeated. Those people became slaves but most likely eventually became integrated in one way or another into the fabric of the society of their masters. Something I was surprised to learn was that not all Jews returned to their homeland when Cyrus released them. There was a thriving Jewish community in Babylon long afterwords, including one of the two greatest rabbinical scholars of the period immediately prior to the public life of Jesus.

As for one of your other points, the free market view is that we as individuals sell our labor in a free market transaction. When the fruits of our labor (our wages) are confiscated by whomever, then we are forced to give our labor to some third party.The question to all of us is at what point do we become slaves to those who confiscate the fruits of our labor, be it church or state?

I like to think that there is a price of admission to be paid to those who choose to belong to any community, be it church or state. But when that price of admission exceeds the fair value received in return, then we should question it. Contributing to one's church is a time honored tradition. Being forced physically or psychologically to contribute more than one's fair share is slavery. IMHO
Absolutely to you, too. Absolutely right.
 
Old 06-14-2012, 06:05 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,816,000 times
Reputation: 1323
Hi spm62, it is good to see you posting again. Missed you

God bless and peace.
 
Old 06-18-2012, 07:29 AM
 
3,259 posts, read 5,097,230 times
Reputation: 1470
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I agree with that there are paradoxes that we fully can't understand but I don't see how this applies to a paradox, the bible is very clear about slavery and that slavery by kidnapping is wrong and punishable by death. I believe this falls under God's sovereignty.
I agree with you. Also, God gave clear provisions on how His people were to treat slaves, strangers, and their fellow family members. The standard that God set for the Jews in Leviticus, more specifically Leviticus 25, even though it was God providing these provisions for the Jews under the Law, was and continues to be an example of how we are to imitate Him in the way we conduct business and handled our property, be it cattle or slaves.
 
Old 07-24-2012, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Detroit, MI
62 posts, read 76,446 times
Reputation: 29
As for saying that God ordained slavery that is a crock- It is like Saint Paul the ambitious sell out saying...Governments are put in place by GOD and thus are to be obeyed---This is a lie- GOD does not install bad governance - corrupt men do....If you have great ability and great talent- that you can create art and music as well as wage successful war- YOU can be a master- because your gifts are to be shared and delivered to your lessors.

If you have power and do not know how to use it- and do not care and you ruin a nation- revolution that is bloodless or bloody will remove you naturally- Todays masters had grand fathers that were former slaves_ Be careful ...if you act like a jerk- You too can have chains- even golden ones.[/quote]

My position on whether or not God ordained, permitted or allowed American slavery is based on a literal interpretation of Isaiah 45:5-8, Amos 3:1-6 and John 1:1-5 (there might be some minor difficulties in harmonizing these three passages or the appearance of a paradox to some ears. I feel you! There are a few other such difficulties in the Holy Bible, none more unresolvable than as exists in the teachings of Calvinism verses Arminianism. Paradoxes will be resolved when we see our Redeemer face to face).

Whatever our positions may be on the origins, causes and the proper governance of slavery institutions, however, the fact remains that "ghosts" from the Civil War Era in America continues to tinge the social, political and spiritual fabric of our nation. It would be imprudent to explicitly mention the policies being designed to accomplish some of the things the Civil War did not and, in truth, could not. That, hopefully in a tactful posture, brings me to the point of my first question, i.e., "Did God Ordain American Slavery?" Accordingly, please allow me to change the question to "Why Did God Ordain American Slavery?" Also keep in mind that God, as chronicled in the Book of Judges and justified in the 18th Chapter of Jeremiah, does not forever allow a nation to abuse His people and malign His omnipotence in the eyes of infidels.

Consider one of the problems.

"In God We Trust," "One Nation under God with Liberty and Justice for All," and "God Save the United States and this Honorable Court" are words presumably intended to convey, among other things, the idea that America is a Christian nation. I understand that 100% of our citizens do not have to be redeemed Believers in order to qualify us as a Christian nation (2 Chronicles 7:14). Even so, when I hear people in high places who (1) profess to be Christians but (2) feel no fear in saying that America is not a Christian nation, in foreign capitols no less, I would be negligent to remain silent. God has a limit on how long He will deal mercifully with rogue confessors (2 Kings 18:25 & 19:35)! Semantics aside, 2 Chronicles 7:14 requires only those who are called by His name (His People) to assume responsibility for the welfare of their homeland (no number of Believers or percentages are specified). So the question then becomes what should we pray about? I am glad you asked.

The circumstances that existed in the few years prior to the Civil War were usually defined in economic and political terms. Jefferson Davis recognized a spiritual dimension by praying for guidance from "the God of our fathers" during his inaugural speech as President of the Confederacy in January of 1861. President Lincoln would soon do the same for the Union and the slaves, who referred to themselves as "soldiers of the Cross" in their coded songs, also prayed concerning the bloody catastrophe that had come upon the nation; each of these three parties to the conflict manifestly were praying for different reasons.

The American Civil War, as has been noted by many, was above everything else a theological war; it was a question of which Christian position on slavery would prevail. The matter creates the looming possibility that this nation will have to undergo another purging before it truly becomes "One Nation under God... etc". I say looming possibility because God is merciful.... He often allows individuals and nations. But He is also a God of justice. Who can say when He might lose patience with our dissembling practices?

A major portion of the social, political and spiritual conflicts troubling our nation can be traced directly to the "unfinished" business of the Civil War. On the other hand, if the Americans who are called by His name, His people, let us say a mere 10% of our population, would understand based on Isaiah 45:5-8, that the peculiar institution was the Lord's work, that American slavery with all of its horrific character was ordained by Him and that we should allow all of His works to be marvelous in our eyes, especially the Resurrection and the promised Second Advent, then our God will heal our land.

I am prayerfully looking forward to an opportunity to say more on this subject in the near future.

God bless.
 
Old 07-24-2012, 02:26 PM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,936,867 times
Reputation: 255
[quote=ancient warrior;24681446]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oleg Bach View Post
Great - lets blame that one on GOD...who came up with this theological theory?

As for saying that God ordained slavery that is a crock- quote]

RESPONSE:

Perhaps you should read Leviticus?

Lev 25:1-2,44-46 "The Lord spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai, saying: Speak to the people of Israel and say to them.......As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property."
RESPONSE:

Yes. The moral permissibility of slave ownership is one of the major errors in the Bible. Others are the condemnation of loaning for interest, and the freedom and in fact desirability of practicing genocide against nonbelievers (even the killing the small children).

From the Bible's advocacy of such things one may conclude that the Bible clearly isn't divinely inspired but the work of men.

Last edited by ancient warrior; 07-24-2012 at 02:27 PM.. Reason: typo
 
Old 07-24-2012, 07:52 PM
 
37,500 posts, read 25,232,088 times
Reputation: 5855
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

Yes. The moral permissibility of slave ownership is one of the major errors in the Bible. Others are the condemnation of loaning for interest, and the freedom and in fact desirability of practicing genocide against nonbelievers (even the killing the small children).

From the Bible's advocacy of such things one may conclude that the Bible clearly isn't divinely inspired but the work of men.
Your criticisms of the Bible are well-taken, Ancient . . . but you go too far. The Bible is indeed the "work of men"(how could it be other) . . . but it is still Divinely inspired . . . just NOT dictated or inerrant or infallible. It is subject to every foible and fallibility of humanity . . . but those whose who listen for and hear the Holy Spirit in "love of God and each other" can easily spot those as you have done.
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