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Thank you, Heavenese, for adding some insight to the canvas. I found your arguments very informative and sincere. I am still left with the conviction, however, based on my own reading of pertinent Scriptures, that my premise is valid. Consider the following quote from Isaiah 45:5-8 (KJV).
I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God besides me: i girded thee, though thou has not known me:
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none besides me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.
I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace and createevil. I the Lord do all these things (emphases added).
Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness; let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the Lord have created it.
My interpretation of this beautiful passage is rooted in the conviction that God is the Architect of all things (John 1:1-5), that He is omnipresent (Psalm139:7-12), that He is omniscient (Hebrews 4:11-13) and that He is omnipotent (Revelation 19:16).
Concerning Revelation 19:16, which is quite explicit, if He is not omnipotent in all respects, i.e., over all things including "peace and evil" as mentioned in Isaiah 45:7, then He is not be omnipotent over anything. That would mean, using the finite logic of his creatures, not only that John 1:1-5 is not true but also that the entire Bible can not be true.
As shocking as this may sound to the ears of some people, allow me to point out that the Bing Bang theory is intended to plant doubt in our hearts that, just maybe, just perhaps, let us use some logic now, that the first verse in the Bible, i.e., "In the beginning .......," just might not be true. That is why we find in Psalm 19:1 that "the heavens declare the glory of the Lord." God is omniscient....., He knew that Satan would try to corrupt His truth with logically sounding lies! A little lie corrupts the whole truth (1 Corinthians 5:6).
If you manage to avoid the Big Bang trap, then you must contend with Darwin's theory of evolution and the suggestion by some pseudo-Christians, atheists and agnostics that there is no such thing as a place of eternal death for those who reject Christ as their Savior (Deuteronomy 30:19 & Acts 17:23-31).
Because God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, as the Scriptures proclaim, He unequivocally ordained American Slavery just as He informs us in Isaiah 45:7. Man cannot ordain anything......, we can not even discern what will happen in our lives one second from now. It is called grace...., and it can come to us only from our omnipotent Creator.
God bless. Keep the Faith. God is not through with America yet. Selah.
The evil being referred to in Isaiah 45 is not the evil you think it is. What it's referring to is God's judgments. That is God judging the people for their evil. Think Sodom and Gomorrah, the flood in Noah's day, the judgment on the Canaanites.
Do you remember when Moses interceeded for the people of Israel, whom God was about to wipe out because of their sin? How the Bible said that God repented from the "evil" He planned to do to the people. So the evil referred to in Isaiah, is God's judgments. Again when the people of Ninevah repented of their sin after hearing Jonah, God turned from the "evil" He declared He would bring upon them. So Isaiah can be read like this......that God brings prosperity and that He brings judgment, He does all these things.
If anyone wants to see God's true heart, just look at how He created the world. Where was Adam's slave in the Garden of Eden, if God planned for men to have slaves? Where was all the murdering in the Garden of Eden, if God attended for people to murder one another? (All the creatures were on a vegetarian diet, so even the animals didn't kill and eat each other) That was God's intention for the creation, for man. All this other stuff that's happening now and back then, is the result of the fall. God allowed Israel to have slaves, but it wasn't anything like the slavery the US had.
The evil being referred to in Isaiah 45 is not the evil you think it is. What it's referring to is God's judgments. That is God judging the people for their evil. Think Sodom and Gomorrah, the flood in Noah's day, the judgment on the Canaanites.
Do you remember when Moses interceeded for the people of Israel, whom God was about to wipe out because of their sin? How the Bible said that God repented from the "evil" He planned to do to the people. So the evil referred to in Isaiah, is God's judgments. Again when the people of Ninevah repented of their sin after hearing Jonah, God turned from the "evil" He declared He would bring upon them. So Isaiah can be read like this......that God brings prosperity and that He brings judgment, He does all these things.
If anyone wants to see God's true heart, just look at how He created the world. Where was Adam's slave in the Garden of Eden, if God planned for men to have slaves? Where was all the murdering in the Garden of Eden, if God attended for people to murder one another? (All the creatures were on a vegetarian diet, so even the animals didn't kill and eat each other) That was God's intention for the creation, for man. All this other stuff that's happening now and back then, is the result of the fall. God allowed Israel to have slaves, but it wasn't anything like the slavery the US had.
You, my brother, have secured my eternal admiration. The basic point of your argument as I understand it, that God is good and that there is no darkness in Him at all, has been the foundation of some theologies for centuries (or so I am told). I do not read into your arguments that God never ordains anything...., good things and blessings for instance, but rather that He does not ordain evil things in the sense that I was promoting (Correct me if I have misunderstood you please). More specifically, if I were to say that God ordained, as opposed to allowed in the narrowest sense of both terms, that the Apostle Paul would be redeemed from murdering Christians to recruiting them...., you probably in principle would agree with me. Let me emphatically add that your position is not distasteful to my spirit. I can even assert that I find your arguments inspiring......, even to the point of making me more secure in the core of what I privately refer to as my theology. Please allow me to explain.
I have a cartoon on the wall near my desk of two fellows in a heated discussion. The caption reads "A Calvinist and an Arminian square off." One fellow is saying "Ya know, I am starting to feel like it's meant for me to deck you!" and the other is replying "Oh yeah? Well whatever you choose to do, buddy!" Very very funny and, it seems to me, attired in a profound paradox. A similar issue was raised in the initial posting for this thread.
To help me understand some of God's precepts without closing my mind or heart to any of them, I have adopted the position, pending further enlightening, that, while His written and revealed word to His people contains some paradoxes, it absolutely never contains any contradictions; any appearances to the contrary that find opportunity for heated debate (think Calvinist vs Arminian) among Christians will be resolved when we see Him face to face at the Second Advent. I therefore am open to embracing every theological blessing that crosses my path........, so long as its content does not invite me to abandon or ignore some other Biblical precept. Examples: Should the Great Commission be ignored because some Christians assert that only those who were chosen before the foundation of the world will be saved? Or, conversely, should the concept of predestination be diminished because other some Christians view it as incompatible with the Great Commission? Is it possible that God predestined those who He knew would accept Christ of their own volition? Would that not be a viable way to harmonize the otherwise opposing theologies of radical Calvinists and Arminians? Not in this world you say? Well, to be candid, I suspect it would be an act of futility to offer such an easy solution for one source of friction in the Body of Christ. "Let the wheat and the tares......... (Matthew 13:24-30)!!! Perhaps, for reasons that are beyond our comprehension, dare I say, God ordained it to be so as a way to keep His children from being puffed up about what they think they understand. Perhaps.
I perceive, my brother, that you could be a blessing to all of us on this thread. Believing in Divine Providence as I do, I am prayerfully optimistic that you will continue to bless us with your insight. Who knows but that He ordained you for such a time as this?
Keep the Faith, my brother. God truly is not through with our nation yet.
You, my brother, have secured my eternal admiration. The basic point of your argument as I understand it, that God is good and that there is no darkness in Him at all, has been the foundation of some theologies for centuries (or so I am told). I do not read into your arguments that God never ordains anything...., good things and blessings for instance, but rather that He does not ordain evil things in the sense that I was promoting (Correct me if I have misunderstood you please). More specifically, if I were to say that God ordained, as opposed to allowed in the narrowest sense of both terms, that the Apostle Paul would be redeemed from murdering Christians to recruiting them...., you probably in principle would agree with me. Let me emphatically add that your position is not distasteful to my spirit. I can even assert that I find your arguments inspiring......, even to the point of making me more secure in the core of what I privately refer to as my theology. Please allow me to explain.
I have a cartoon on the wall near my desk of two fellows in a heated discussion. The caption reads "A Calvinist and an Arminian square off." One fellow is saying "Ya know, I am starting to feel like it's meant for me to deck you!" and the other is replying "Oh yeah? Well whatever you choose to do, buddy!" Very very funny and, it seems to me, attired in a profound paradox. A similar issue was raised in the initial posting for this thread.
To help me understand some of God's precepts without closing my mind or heart to any of them, I have adopted the position, pending further enlightening, that, while His written and revealed word to His people contains some paradoxes, it absolutely never contains any contradictions; any appearances to the contrary that find opportunity for heated debate (think Calvinist vs Arminian) among Christians will be resolved when we see Him face to face at the Second Advent. I therefore am open to embracing every theological blessing that crosses my path........, so long as its content does not invite me to abandon or ignore some other Biblical precept. Examples: Should the Great Commission be ignored because some Christians assert that only those who were chosen before the foundation of the world will be saved? Or, conversely, should the concept of predestination be diminished because other some Christians view it as incompatible with the Great Commission? Is it possible that God predestined those who He knew would accept Christ of their own volition? Would that not be a viable way to harmonize the otherwise opposing theologies of radical Calvinists and Arminians? Not in this world you say? Well, to be candid, I suspect it would be an act of futility to offer such an easy solution for one source of friction in the Body of Christ. "Let the wheat and the tares......... (Matthew 13:24-30)!!! Perhaps, for reasons that are beyond our comprehension, dare I say, God ordained it to be so as a way to keep His children from being puffed up about what they think they understand. Perhaps.
I perceive, my brother, that you could be a blessing to all of us on this thread. Believing in Divine Providence as I do, I am prayerfully optimistic that you will continue to bless us with your insight. Who knows but that He ordained you for such a time as this?
Keep the Faith, my brother. God truly is not through with our nation yet.
Your words are also inspiring to me. I don't consider myself to be anyone special, it's all about Jesus, and who we are in Him. I mentioned in other threads about how man's traditions get in the way of God's word. I found that, the Church is steep in almost 2,000 years of man's traditions. I just want to put all of that aside, because those traditions make God seem like a man made concept. Well, it feels like I'm rambling on a bit here.
After studying the Bible for a little bit (about 4 years now, but it doesn't seem like that long), I found a whole lot of wrong thinking concerning the mainstream beliefs about God. Most atheists would say God encouraged American slavery. He didn't stop it, because of the slavery in the Bible. Most importantly, that the people (Christians) used the Bible to promote the slavery of the african people. Yet I've found in fact, that is dead wrong. That God utterly condemned such slavery, to the point that anyone found with a captured slave, would be put to death. When I found that text within the Bible, I was completely astonished, because all I heard was how the Bible promoted american slavery. I never heard of God condemning the master of a captured slave to death.
So I found that as a real eye opener. That is not the only one I found by the way. Just in my four years of study, it is almost like reading a completely different Bible than my ancestors read. What it got me doing, is answering a bunch of new questions about our faith. Almost like resdicovering what was lost. So I'm definitely excited about what the Lord is doing in this day age.
The evil being referred to in Isaiah 45 is not the evil you think it is. What it's referring to is God's judgments. That is God judging the people for their evil. Think Sodom and Gomorrah, the flood in Noah's day, the judgment on the Canaanites.
With reference to your suggestion concerning my interpretation of Isaiah 45:5-8, being always open to the possibility that I do not understand the things of God that I think I do, I did some research on the word "evil" in the King James Bible. My intent, using Strong's Concordance, was to discover what a widely esteemed scholar (Dr. James Strong) had to say on the matter.
There appears to be three (3) different Hebrew words translated as "evil" in the Book of Isaiah. The one in Isaiah 45:7. i.e., "I make peace, and create evil......," has a few synonyms listed (adversity, calamity, grief, sorrow, trouble and mischief) but judgement does not appear to be among them.
Your attention is invited to this subject again primarily to clarify the bases for my position. Since I am not a scholar in even the most liberal sense of the word, I must emphasize that clarifying my position should not be viewed as disparaging your position. It could be that you are correct in every respect. Under the circumstances, however, perhaps you might understand why I am eager to know more details of how your studies led you to the conclusion that my interpretation of Isaiah 45:5-8 is not appropriate. More specifically I am curious to know what Scriptures are the foundation of your theology.
Beyond a desire to enhance my own knowledge on this subject, let us always remember that not all of the people who read our posts are in need of our instructions. It might even be wise to assume that most of them are quite capable of teaching us a thing or two. As long as I make a sincere and open minded effort to share my beliefs as opposed to adopting an inflexible didactic posture, hopefully, I will increase my chances of hearing from someone with a benevolent heart who operates a few tiers above my pay grade concerning the things of God.
To the extent that Joseph most assuredly thanked God for the opportunity to provide food for his family because of his authority and position in Egypt, I am thankful for an opportunity to be a part of a worldwide movement that can trace its roots directly to the dungeons in the belly of slave ships. Did God ordain this worldwide movement (Pentecostalism)? Did God ordain the elevation of Joseph? Is God omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent? How does John 1:1-5 relate to these questions? What are the Scriptures that support your position? Some of our readers, I suspect my brother, are just as eager as I am to know.
Keep the Faith. God is not through with either of us yet.
With reference to your suggestion concerning my interpretation of Isaiah 45:5-8, being always open to the possibility that I do not understand the things of God that I think I do, I did some research on the word "evil" in the King James Bible. My intent, using Strong's Concordance, was to discover what a widely esteemed scholar (Dr. James Strong) had to say on the matter.
There appears to be three (3) different Hebrew words translated as "evil" in the Book of Isaiah. The one in Isaiah 45:7. i.e., "I make peace, and create evil......," has a few synonyms listed (adversity, calamity, grief, sorrow, trouble and mischief) but judgement does not appear to be among them.
Your attention is invited to this subject again primarily to clarify the bases for my position. Since I am not a scholar in even the most liberal sense of the word, I must emphasize that clarifying my position should not be viewed as disparaging your position. It could be that you are correct in every respect. Under the circumstances, however, perhaps you might understand why I am eager to know more details of how your studies led you to the conclusion that my interpretation of Isaiah 45:5-8 is not appropriate. More specifically I am curious to know what Scriptures are the foundation of your theology.
Beyond a desire to enhance my own knowledge on this subject, let us always remember that not all of the people who read our posts are in need of our instructions. It might even be wise to assume that most of them are quite capable of teaching us a thing or two. As long as I make a sincere and open minded effort to share my beliefs as opposed to adopting an inflexible didactic posture, hopefully, I will increase my chances of hearing from someone with a benevolent heart who operates a few tiers above my pay grade concerning the things of God.
To the extent that Joseph most assuredly thanked God for the opportunity to provide food for his family because of his authority and position in Egypt, I am thankful for an opportunity to be a part of a worldwide movement that can trace its roots directly to the dungeons in the belly of slave ships. Did God ordain this worldwide movement (Pentecostalism)? Did God ordain the elevation of Joseph? Is God omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent? How does John 1:1-5 relate to these questions? What are the Scriptures that support your position? Some of our readers, I suspect my brother, are just as eager as I am to know.
Keep the Faith. God is not through with either of us yet.
I interpret that word as I do, because the same language is used when God changed His mind about harming the people of Israel because of their sins. (Read verses Exodus 32:14 and Jonah 3:10)
With all that said, God does work everything out for the good of those that love Him. I would say He didn't ordain american slavery, but He worked it out for the good. His workings with this, is not complete by the way. I imagine God will work this thing out, to the point where America will finally have all cultures of people coming together, and seeing everyone as family and not aliens. Every country has a majority which it is known for. Yet America will be a country where everyone knows each other's culture as their own. God will do it through the descendants of the slaves, and not all of them are black ethnically.
You mentioned Pentecostalism. When it comes to denominations, I'm not a big fan because not only does it seperates us, but we tend to make our own traditions with it. Yet Pentecostalism did make us go back to having an expectation of miracles. So that was definitely great. The miracles are what confirms what we are saying is from God. So Pentecostalism will play a part in bringing the overall message of Christ back.
I agree with you concerning staying humble. Scripture tells us to be quick to hear, and slow to speak. I'm mostly quite by habit, but when talking on things like this, sometimes I get so excited that I begin to stutter. All of this is exciting!
I interpret that word as I do, because the same language is used when God changed His mind about harming the people of Israel because of their sins. (Read verses Exodus 32:14 and Jonah 3:10)
With all that said, God does work everything out for the good of those that love Him. I would say He didn't ordain american slavery, but He worked it out for the good. His workings with this, is not complete by the way. I imagine God will work this thing out, to the point where America will finally have all cultures of people coming together, and seeing everyone as family and not aliens. Every country has a majority which it is known for. Yet America will be a country where everyone knows each other's culture as their own. God will do it through the descendants of the slaves, and not all of them are black ethnically.
You mentioned Pentecostalism. When it comes to denominations, I'm not a big fan because not only does it seperates us, but we tend to make our own traditions with it. Yet Pentecostalism did make us go back to having an expectation of miracles. So that was definitely great. The miracles are what confirms what we are saying is from God. So Pentecostalism will play a part in bringing the overall message of Christ back.
I agree with you concerning staying humble. Scripture tells us to be quick to hear, and slow to speak. I'm mostly quite by habit, but when talking on things like this, sometimes I get so excited that I begin to stutter. All of this is exciting!
Imagine that you and I during the evening rush hour are standing at diagonally opposite corners of a very busy intersection. We are talking on our cell phones describing to each other the events we are witnessing from our individual locations while someone in a distant location, in space and time, is monitoring our conversation. If the person listening to our chatter did not know we were speaking from opposite location or perspectives, i.e., limited by what we could see by our predestined circumstances, they might conclude that one or both of us was trying to be deceitful to posterity.
I recognize that you are sincere in your analyses of Scripture and that you nor I will never be able to understand, if at all, anything except those things that our Creator permits, allows, predestines or enables us to understand. So let us be faithful to our assignment and obedient to His voice that only we can hear individually. To do otherwise would be criminal and displeasing to Him that ordained us (I like that word. It helps me to be grateful for His work in taking some of my ancestors our of Africa).
On a good day, I must confess. I have deep affections for Calvinism; its doctrine of predestination appeals to my vision of God as being omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. When I read the story of Joseph and how he ended up second in power to the Pharaoh of Egypt, especially of how some of the small details (the Ishmaelites came along just when his brothers were about ready to kill him) changed his fate, I can see the Divine Hand of Providence (predestination) at work. But trying to explain all things in terms of predestination is impossible to do in the face of the Great Commission. My conclusion is that the free will of man, as in the Garden of Eden, and the Divine plans of God are both at work in the earth; He did not intend nor will He allow us to understand how those seemingly contrary forces can be reconciled with each other (Isaiah 55:8-9).
But let me be equally emphatic on this matter; I greatly admire your convictions!!! Let us therefore with clear consciences and grateful hearts contribute to the prosperity of the Body of Christ in a manner that is consistent with the burdens and understanding He has given us. We, you and I my brother, to use a metaphor already mentioned, have been assigned to view the HisStory of the world from different perspectives. God, however, can view the matter from all perspectives in time and space. All any of us can ever see or understand are those things He reveals to us. He will also allow us to see some things that we will never be able to explain or understand. Have you ever seen a buring bush that was not consumed? Have you ever experienced a miracle that you dare not share with anyone (actually God does not intend for us to share all details of our encounters with Him. Some things are just too personal).
Allow me to leave you with this thought; many, if not all, of the things that God is revealing to us today will be made obsolete by Him at some later date that will not be of our choosing. That is His way of making sure that we either recognize His intent to make us more mature or to become fatally discouraged from the frustration of having to discard some old baggage. Not everyone, especially those who refuse to crucify the old man, so to speak, will endure to the end.
Imagine that you and I during the evening rush hour are standing at diagonally opposite corners of a very busy intersection. We are talking on our cell phones describing to each other the events we are witnessing from our individual locations while someone in a distant location, in space and time, is monitoring our conversation. If the person listening to our chatter did not know we were speaking from opposite location or perspectives, i.e., limited by what we could see by our predestined circumstances, they might conclude that one or both of us was trying to be deceitful to posterity.
I recognize that you are sincere in your analyses of Scripture and that you nor I will never be able to understand, if at all, anything except those things that our Creator permits, allows, predestines or enables us to understand. So let us be faithful to our assignment and obedient to His voice that only we can hear individually. To do otherwise would be criminal and displeasing to Him that ordained us (I like that word. It helps me to be grateful for His work in taking some of my ancestors our of Africa).
On a good day, I must confess. I have deep affections for Calvinism; its doctrine of predestination appeals to my vision of God as being omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. When I read the story of Joseph and how he ended up second in power to the Pharaoh of Egypt, especially of how some of the small details (the Ishmaelites came along just when his brothers were about ready to kill him) changed his fate, I can see the Divine Hand of Providence (predestination) at work. But trying to explain all things in terms of predestination is impossible to do in the face of the Great Commission. My conclusion is that the free will of man, as in the Garden of Eden, and the Divine plans of God are both at work in the earth; He did not intend nor will He allow us to understand how those seemingly contrary forces can be reconciled with each other (Isaiah 55:8-9).
But let me be equally emphatic on this matter; I greatly admire your convictions!!! Let us therefore with clear consciences and grateful hearts contribute to the prosperity of the Body of Christ in a manner that is consistent with the burdens and understanding He has given us. We, you and I my brother, to use a metaphor already mentioned, have been assigned to view the HisStory of the world from different perspectives. God, however, can view the matter from all perspectives in time and space. All any of us can ever see or understand are those things He reveals to us. He will also allow us to see some things that we will never be able to explain or understand. Have you ever seen a buring bush that was not consumed? Have you ever experienced a miracle that you dare not share with anyone (actually God does not intend for us to share all details of our encounters with Him. Some things are just too personal).
Allow me to leave you with this thought; many, if not all, of the things that God is revealing to us today will be made obsolete by Him at some later date that will not be of our choosing. That is His way of making sure that we either recognize His intent to make us more mature or to become fatally discouraged from the frustration of having to discard some old baggage. Not everyone, especially those who refuse to crucify the old man, so to speak, will endure to the end.
Amen???
Just like I found Scripture that shows how utterly oppose God is to the kind of slavery that went on in the US, I also found new meaning for that word predestination. Predestination doesn't mean what most think it mean. It doesn't mean a certain thing will happen, no matter what. Of course with God's promises, and there are promises of His that were conditional by the way, they will happen because God will make it happen. Yet predestination simply means what God has planned for us. For instance God predestined man to be with Him, but man can decide on whether to do that or go their own way. (Which this way leads to death)
Calvin taught predestination like everything was decided, that God already knows who's going to be saved and who's not. I'm sure He had to overlook a bunch of verses in Scripture, especially ones that show how long suffering God is, wanting everyone to come to saving knowledge. Calvin is not the first who overlooked or tried to explain away Scripture, just like the american slave owners and justifiers tried to overlook Scripture. They won't be the last. That's why I said, it's like I'm reading a different Bible than what my ancestors were reading. We keep quoting how God's thoughts are higher than ours, yet that was concerning our old ways, the way we think in our bodies. Now we have the Holy Spirit, who reveals to us God's thoughts. (1 Corinthians 2 10-11) It's time we stopped focusing on what we can't understand about God, and focus on what He has revealed to us, and continue to reveal.
Calvin taught predestination like everything was decided, that God already knows who's going to be saved and who's not. I'm sure He had to overlook a bunch of verses in Scripture, especially ones that show how long suffering God is, wanting everyone to come to saving knowledge. Calvin is not the first who overlooked or tried to explain away Scripture, just like the american slave owners and justifiers tried to overlook Scripture. They won't be the last. That's why I said, it's like I'm reading a different Bible than what my ancestors were reading. We keep quoting how God's thoughts are higher than ours, yet that was concerning our old ways, the way we think in our bodies. Now we have the Holy Spirit, who reveals to us God's thoughts. (1 Corinthians 2 10-11) It's time we stopped focusing on what we can't understand about God, and focus on what He has revealed to us, and continue to reveal.
After carefully studying your assertions, I must confess that I am almost convinced that you do not agree with any of my theology. That in itself is not a surprise..... Christians very rarely agree on every precept in the Scriptures. I would suggest, however, that God does not intend for His children (!!!) to understand everything about His word if for no other good reason than that it would discourage dialogue and discourse as a means to growth and spiritual perception.
By the way, are you suggesting that God does not already know who is going to be saved? If that is your position then how does that argument comport with the omniscience of God? Or more to the point, is God or is He not omniscient?
All shall be saved, delivered from the bondage of this world. Coming to the knowledge of the truth is an ongoing process. But, we will all get there in due time; each in their own order.
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A Few More Rivers to Cross
