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All shall be saved, delivered from the bondage of this world. Coming to the knowledge of the truth is an ongoing process. But, we will all get there in due time; each in their own order.
Why is that seen as Good News only to a few and not to the majority who claim to follow Christ? It is a puzzlement, Jerwade.
All shall be saved, delivered from the bondage of this world. Coming to the knowledge of the truth is an ongoing process. But, we will all get there in due time; each in their own order.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Why is that seen as Good News only to a few and not to the majority who claim to follow Christ?
It is a puzzlement, Jerwade.
One-upmanship within the sea of humanity (i.e., my knowledge and understanding is greater than yours)? Its origin comes from the fountainhead which streams from the minds of men; not the heart of the Spirit.
All shall be saved, delivered from the bondage of this world. Coming to the knowledge of the truth is an ongoing process. But, we will all get there in due time; each in their own order.
After carefully studying your assertions, I must confess that I am almost convinced that you do not agree with any of my theology. That in itself is not a surprise..... Christians very rarely agree on every precept in the Scriptures. I would suggest, however, that God does not intend for His children (!!!) to understand everything about His word if for no other good reason than that it would discourage dialogue and discourse as a means to growth and spiritual perception.
We all have a measure of faith. It's when we come together, that we will see the full measure of the body of Christ at work. Again we won't understand everything in this age, but God has revealed way more to us than we (the Church) let on. For instance, even if the people back then actually found justification for American slavery from the Bible, that justification came from under the Law. It came from the OT. So for our ancestors, they weren't very Christ minded (Who is all about grace). Of course it is your belief that God ordained American slavery, not so much the people using the Bible to justify slavery. That God ordained it like He ordained Joseph's slavery.
I've spoken in this topic, but I suppose I never gave my whole thoughts on it. (All I stated was how God's laws are utterly opposed to the kind of slavery that went on in the US) So I will share my thoughts concerning Joseph, and will relate that to whether or not God ordained American slavery in the same sense.
From reading the account of Joseph and his brothers, it was the brothers' will to kill him. Yet Reuben tried to stall for time with his brothers, because he sought to bring him back to their father. Chances are if those Ishmaelites didn't come when they did, they would have eventually killed Joseph. Yet as you said, the Ishmaelites came at just the right time. So all of a sudden, Judah has a bright idea. Instead of shedding their brother's blood, he suggested selling Joseph to the Ishmaelites. I definitely believe God ordained that. So again, originally the brothers wanted to kill Joseph, but things lined up just so that instead of killing him, they sell him as a slave to a foreign people.
It was the brothers will to kill Joseph because of the favoritism Jacob shown him, and because of Joseph's dreams. God didn't ordain that. The brothers eventually decided to sell Joseph, hoping that would kill off his dreams without actually killing him themselves. God ordained that, to not only save Joseph, but also Israel and the world of that time.
In relations to American slavery, God didn't ordain it because it was the slave owners' will that the african people be made slaves and treated as sub-human. With Joseph's brothers, it was their will to kill Joseph. God didn't ordain that, and in the same way He didn't ordain the slave owners' will to treat african peoples as animals. Plus I already stated American slavery is utterly opposed to God's laws. So that is my full view on it. God didn't ordain american slavery, but He did take it and turned it around. In truth, He's not through with the descendants of the slaves. He's about to make something special happen with them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elder James III
By the way, are you suggesting that God does not already know who is going to be saved? If that is your position then how does that argument comport with the omniscience of God? Or more to the point, is God or is He not omniscient?
God bless.
God is definitely omniscient, yet He doesn't know everyone who is going to be saved. How do I reconcile that? Firstly, I've shared this with christians and atheists alike, and pretty much all of them have trouble understanding this reasoning. The main reason is because we've been told one thing for so long, we have a hard time seeing something differently even if it makes more sense. Even I had to think about it when I first heard it this way, but I didn't have problems with it ultimately because I was never steeped in traditional thought. So this is my reasoning...
God knows everything, but where there is nothing to know, He doesn't know. When it comes to free will, that is choosing to be with God or going our own way, there is nothing to know. That is simply our choice. God knows the end of every choice, He's not surprised by anything that happens, but the choice is ours to make.
Let's say someone rejects Him early in their life. God is gracious and long suffering. God can come back to that person later, and they can change their mind. If they can change their mind, then there is nothing to ultimately know about "the" choice they will make.
Another way of looking at it is, if God knows the choices everyone will ultimately make, then He presented those choices to us before we make them, do we have the freedom to change them? If we can, then God doesn't know the ultimate choice we will make, because there is simply nothing to know. If we can't change our choice, then we have no free will, and you will have to overlook a bunch of Scriptures that imply we do. So remember this, God knows everything, yet where there is nothing to know, He doesn't know. One of the Scriptures that help me to understand this is the one where it says God knows the end from the beginning. Notice it says God knows the end from the "beginning". If there is no beginning, there is no end. If there is no end, there is nothing to know.
On a side note, a lot of people wonder did God know Adam would sin before He created him? My answer is if God knew Adam would sin, or more specifically if God knew there would be men who would utterly reject Him, He would have never created man to begin with. As evidenced in God's comments that He was sorry He made man. (Genesis 6:7) Yet many people just believe God knew what Adam would do, before Adam even existed. How can Adam's choices exist before he does? That is illogical, and even though God's understanding exceedingly exceeds our own (understatement), God is not illogical. It would be like saying God and Satan are the same person, it's that kind of illogical. Adam first had to exist, before there was anything to know concerning what he himself would choose to do. Yet as I said earlier, choices are yet to be made. Adam had a choice to make, and until he made that choice, there was nothing for God to know concerning what he "would" do. Now of course God knew Adam's thoughts and so forth, and I don't know all of what God knows. However, the choice was Adam's to make.
God is definitely omniscient, yet He doesn't know everyone who is going to be saved. How do I reconcile that? Firstly, I've shared this with christians and atheists alike, and pretty much all of them have trouble understanding this reasoning. The main reason is because we've been told one thing for so long, we have a hard time seeing something differently even if it makes more sense. Even I had to think about it when I first heard it this way, but I didn't have problems with it ultimately because I was never steeped in traditional thought. So this is my reasoning...
God knows everything, but where there is nothing to know, He doesn't know. When it comes to free will, that is choosing to be with God or going our own way, there is nothing to know. That is simply our choice. God knows the end of every choice, He's not surprised by anything that happens, but the choice is ours to make.
Another way of looking at it is, if God knows the choices everyone will ultimately make, then He presented those choices to us before we make them, do we have the freedom to change them? If we can, then God doesn't know the ultimate choice we will make, because there is simply nothing to know. If we can't change our choice, then we have no free will, and you will have to overlook a bunch of Scriptures that imply we do. So remember this, God knows everything, yet where there is nothing to know, He doesn't know. One of the Scriptures that help me to understand this is the one where it says God knows the end from the beginning. Notice it says God knows the end from the "beginning". If there is no beginning, there is no end. If there is no end, there is nothing to know.
Because I am not very skilled in the art of sophistry, polemics and disingenuous semantics, I often feel at a great disadvantage when discussing my "theology" with those who have diametrically opposite beliefs to those of my own. That is not the case with you, of course, knowing as I do that your intentions are purely to enlighten the beguiled Believers among us. To be more specific, out of respect for your convictions, I still admire your efforts to share the deeper blessings of God's message to His people as you interpret it. To the extent that your efforts will bring sinners into His saving grace and Believers to a closer relationship with Him, you will always have my admiration and endorsement. Beyond that, however, it would be inappropriate to pretend that our theologies could either be reconciled or that either one of us might possibly embrace the convictions of the other (speaking for myself of course).
For the record, and I cannot say it more emphatically, my regard for radical Calvinists is no more or less than my admiration for implacable Arminians (to use two of the most prominent advocates of opposing theologies). The Great Commission and the doctrine of predestination, for me, result from different perspectives of the same proclamation; they are mutually dependent instead of mutually exclusive. I can say this because I believe II Timothy 3:16. Why would God allow His word, or any small part of it, to be invalidated by his creatures whose sole intent is to make themselves appear more spiritual in the eyes of gullible followers? Selah.
The American War of Theologies (1861-65), also known as the American Civil War, is still being waged on a smaller scale in America. Those of us who do not believe the sacrifices of the martyrs in the first conflict and the theological conflicts that arose in its wake should be forgotten or discounted are dedicated to making "In God We Trust" a fulfilled prophecy instead of an empty slogan.
Join us if this challenge resonates with your spirit!!!
God bless.
P.S. A point to ponder: Did God have a plan of salvation on His agenda, i.e., was Christ destined to die on the Cross, before He created man?
Because I am not very skilled in the art of sophistry, polemics and disingenuous semantics, I often feel at a great disadvantage when discussing my "theology" with those who have diametrically opposite beliefs to those of my own. That is not the case with you, of course, knowing as I do that your intentions are purely to enlighten the beguiled Believers among us. To be more specific, out of respect for your convictions, I still admire your efforts to share the deeper blessings of God's message to His people as you interpret it. To the extent that your efforts will bring sinners into His saving grace and Believers to a closer relationship with Him, you will always have my admiration and endorsement. Beyond that, however, it would be inappropriate to pretend that our theologies could either be reconciled or that either one of us might possibly embrace the convictions of the other (speaking for myself of course).
For the record, and I cannot say it more emphatically, my regard for radical Calvinists is no more or less than my admiration for implacable Arminians (to use two of the most prominent advocates of opposing theologies). The Great Commission and the doctrine of predestination, for me, result from different perspectives of the same proclamation; they are mutually dependent instead of mutually exclusive. I can say this because I believe II Timothy 3:16. Why would God allow His word, or any small part of it, to be invalidated by his creatures whose sole intent is to make themselves appear more spiritual in the eyes of gullible followers? Selah.
The American War of Theologies (1861-65), also known as the American Civil War, is still being waged on a smaller scale in America. Those of us who do not believe the sacrifices of the martyrs in the first conflict and the theological conflicts that arose in its wake should be forgotten or discounted are dedicated to making "In God We Trust" a fulfilled prophecy instead of an empty slogan.
Join us if this challenge resonates with your spirit!!!
God bless.
Well, all I want to do is bring out the accurate meaning of Scripture. I want to compare the Scriptures to themselves, and nix our personal thoughts about who God is. As I've said, the Church is steeped in almost 2,000 years of man's traditions. I don't even know all of what Calvinists believe, and I've never heard of Arminians until this thread. (Of course I've may know of Arminian traditions, but I've never heard that name before) Christianity has thousands of denominations and traditions, but there's no question we have gotten away from the whole doctrines of Christ.
The Apostle Paul talked about how he determined to know nothing among the people other than Christ crucified, how he came to them in demonstration of the Spirit and of power. So that their faith wouldn't rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God. This tells us that when Paul preached, God confirmed his word with miracles. How many people today, and throughout the history of the Church, have a demonstration of miracles? Jesus said we would do greater works than He, because He would be at the right hand of the Father, and wouldn't be seen anymore. When Jesus preached, people were healed and set free. So the works backed up who Jesus was and His message. Then it is said that God confirmed the words of the apostles. Paul states in Romans ch. 15 and verse 19 that he fully preached the gospel of Christ, with the workings of miracles.
So ultimately what I'm saying is, the Church has been all talk since the apostles. We've been trying to persuade men with our words, our words and not fully God's. I've found our definition of predestination is our words. If everything is already choosen, even before we ever existed, then most of the Bible concerning us makes zero sense at all. You can officially stop what you're doing, because everything is already decided. Yet people wouldn't do that, Christians who believe everything is decided still wouldn't stop what their doing. So it's kind of speaking out of both sides of the mouth, double mindedness. That is what John Calvin was teaching. In fact with Calvin, even though he taught everything was decided concerning who will be in Heaven and who wasn't, he still taught that if you were successful in life, then you will know you are the elect. (Correct me if I'm wrong) So everyone under Calvin's teachings tried to be successful and work hard, to prove they are the elect. It's a very works based teaching. It doesn't put Christ at the center, but puts works at the center because I can prove I'm the elect by my success. Besides all that, it's totally wrong, because the thief that died on the cross with Jesus certainly wasn't successful in his life. Yet Jesus said he would be in paradise with Him. The beggar Lazarus wasn't successful in his life, and died a beggar. Yet he went on to paradise, while the rich/successful man went to hell. The Scriptures doesn't say the rich man was now in Hell because God chose him to be there, but that he was there mainly because he didn't trust in what the Scriptures told him, and the Scriptures point to Jesus who is grace personified.
So Calvin was all messed up in his teachings about what predestination is. It's the same way with most of the history of the Church. We who are believers today, still take into account their teachings, which is mostly man's traditions. That is why we rarely see miracles today, if at all. God is not going to confirm our traditions, as though they were His doctrines. I'm not necessarily trying to convince anyone to just believe what I'm saying concerning what the Bible says, you will have to judge for yourself whether or not I'm speaking truth. What I am trying to convince Christians about, is to take a look at what they believe. Are you fully believing what the Scriptures are saying, or is a lot of what you believe is from tradition? I want people to judge for themselves, and know God for themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elder James III
P.S. A point to ponder: Did God have a plan of salvation on His agenda, i.e., was Christ destined to die on the Cross, before He created man?
I believe it was settled before the creation of man, that Christ was the plan of salvation should we need salvation. Yet the sin of Adam wasn't a sure thing before he was created. As I said before, how can Adam's choices already be made, before Adam even existed? How can Adam even begin to do something, when he was nothing? This is not a play with semantics when I say God knows everything, but where there is nothing to know, He doesn't know. Adam was nothing before he was created, just as much as our imaginary friends are nothing. How can our imaginary friend slap someone in the face? He/she doesn't exist.
Now, there are verses that say Christ was slain from the foundation of the earth. So people take that to mean Jesus was going to be the sacrifice for sin before God created anything. I disagree, because the word foundation doesn't necessarily mean before the earth was created. I believe it's talking about the beginning, that is once God was finished with His creation, and the very early days of the earth. Our corruption and sin nature doesn't go back to when God was creating the earth. The corruption of the world goes back to the fall of man, Adam's sin. So Christ was slain from the foundation of the earth, meaning from the moment of Adam's sin. Remember God telling the serpent that the Seed of the woman would crush his head? That is what that verse about Christ being slain from the foundation of the earth is referring to, it was the first mention of Jesus in this light. Also, God had to kill an animal, to clothe Adam and Eve, the first shedding of blood to cover their sins. This is also a picture of Christ, that God would cover our sins by His grace.
Again I don't want you to just take my word for it, you judge for yourself. If you experience a miracle today, it may help you out in judging my words for the truth.
God is definitelyomniscient, yet He doesn't know everyone who is going to be saved. How do I reconcile that? Firstly, I've shared this with christians and atheists alike, and pretty much all of them have trouble understanding this reasoning. The main reason is because we've been told one thing for so long, we have a hard time seeing something differently even if it makes more sense. Even I had to think about it when I first heard it this way, but I didn't have problems with it ultimately because I was never steeped in traditional thought. So this is my reasoning...
I assume the first sentence in the quote above was a typographical error. If it is not, then be assured that I am eager, as perhaps some of our readers are also, to hear some clarification of this assertion. It was my conviction that God's omniscience enabled him to know all things without any exceptions.
In the meantime, my conviction that God ordained American slavery in the same sense that He ordained the odyssey of Joseph from the pit to the palace has not been shaken. It has in fact been strengthened. It is interesting that the slaves more or less ignored the "slaves be obedient to your masters" theology to adopt the sojourn of the Israelites in Egypt as a harbinger of their own redemption. At some point, hopefully very soon, we will realize that the slave masters were in spiritual bondage as much as the slaves were in social bondage. And even greater blessing for American will overtake us if we collectively come to the realization that American Slavery was the work of our Creator.
The assertion that God ordained American Slavery is not original. A Presbyterian pastor and former slave owner, Fredrick Ross (1797-1883) by name, published a book entitled Slavery Ordained of God a few years prior to the American Theological War (aka the Civil War). Ross opined that God ordained American slavery as a means of allowing the highest race of people to make contact with the lowest in order to separately bless each. Poor fellow!!! One can only wonder how he managed to reconcile his theology with Acts 17:26. Or perhaps he suggested that it did not mean when some people thought it meant. Selah.
Two other men of the cloth, Robert Dabney (1820-98) and James Thornwell (1812-62) had theological convictions very much like those of Ross; all three worked diligently to keep the South focused on enslaving the Africans in perpetuity.
The bad news is that the spiritual descendants of Ross, Dabney and Thornwell are alive and well in America (think voter suppression). The Good News, pun intended, is that the God who set the boundaries for the Slavocracy as demonstrated by the catastrophic defeat of Robert E; Lee at Gettysberg on 3 July 1863 still reigns.
God did not compel America to adopt "In God We Trust" as its motto. It was our choice. But since we did choose this slogan, we need to understand that He will not allow us to give Him a bad name in the eys of the infidels. Jehovah manifestly is a merciful God. But He is also a just God. Long suffering? Yes He is definitely long suffering. The bible says so in II Peter 3:15. But He is also a just God. Every now and then, He decides to purge those that He loves (read the Book of Judges). America, my brothers and sisters, has been testing the patience of God for a long time. Our profane babbling just might be grating on His ears. It is possible a few corporate "Lord Have Mercies" have already been scheduled for America.
I assume the first sentence in the quote above was a typographical error. If it is not, then be assured that I am eager, as perhaps some of our readers are also, to hear some clarification of this assertion. It was my conviction that God's omniscience enabled him to know all things without any exceptions.
Rev. Fredrick Augustus Ross (1796-1883), an unrepentent apologist for the Slavocracy, asserted in his book Slavery Ordained of God that God had empowered Anglo-Saxons to enslave Africans as a connection between the highest and lowest races of men, "revealing influences which may be, and will be, most benevolent for the ultimate good of the master and the slave." Caiaphas, the Jewish high priest, schemed to have Jesus murdered to save Israel from a supposed threat of annihilation by the Romans (Jn. 11:45-52). And Joseph, who rose to become second to the Pharaoh in Egypt, was sold into slavery by his brothers (Gen. 37:1-36). In all these narratives, Ross, Caiaphas and the brothers of Joseph, God evidently had a hidden agenda that would bring glory to Him and advance His kingdom.
If a literal interpretation of Isaiah 45:5-8 is taken, as is my inclination, it can be confidently stated that God ordained American slavery, the scheming of Caiaphas and the sale of Joseph by his brothers. But God hates sin (Zech 8:17) and most observers would agree that American slavery, the sale of Joseph and the murder of Jesus, in contrast to their noble results, were sinful enterprises. Consequently, even though on most good days I am somewhat right of center on this question, I am too often painfully conflicted and therefore openly seeking to be enlightened.
Could the solution be in a paradox waiting by providential design to be revealed later (1 Cor 13:12)? Should our faith be hindered merely because we cannot grasp all we desire to know about Him (Isaiah 55:9)? Should Christians become combative toward other Believers who disagree on some minor points of interpretation? Did God or did He not, based on exegetical arguments, ordain American Slavery?
Slavery ordained by God? absolutely not. First of all, the Africans were not the lowest race.(that is one of the biggest swaps/lies throughout all history) I know people wanna believe that the ancient Egyptians looked like on Charleton Heston's 10 commandments. This however is not true. The anglo/Caucasian's ancestry traces back to the edomites and the ammonites.(do your research) They are called "Caucasians" because or a point an time in history the ancients of the Europeans lived in the caucus mountains. Through the prophet Obadiya, the Most High had this to say- "The arrogancy of your heart has deceived you, you who live in the cleft of the rock, In the loftiness of your dwelling place, Who say in your heart, Who will bring me down to earth? Though you build high like the eagle, though you set your nest among the stars, from there I will bring you down"(Obadiya verses 3 and 4) it was the most clever swap in history.
Also, what Jews through history were slaves for 400 years? swap. Biblical strongly (although no one knows the day or the hour) to a Messianic return sometime between 2018/2019. Slavery, each time it occurred for the Egyptians and hebrews totaled like 400 years. Add this country, 1619 to 2019 and you have 400. Us called "black" are on the bottom now, that what slavery is-being the lowest of all servants(see Noah's curse) The Most High changed Abram's name to Abra-HAM to symbolize his ancestor. Genesis 15:13 and 14 "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land not that is not theirs, where they will be slaved and oppressed four hundred years. But I will also judge the nation they will serve, and afterwards they will come out with many possesions." Now, if he ordained slavery, then why would he judge them? Those that call themselves "white" need to get over themselves if they actually believe that the Most High ordained slavery!!!!
Slavery ordained by God? absolutely not. First of all, the Africans were not the lowest race.(that is one of the biggest swaps/lies throughout all history) I know people wanna believe that the ancient Egyptians looked like on Charleton Heston's 10 commandments. This however is not true. The anglo/Caucasian's ancestry traces back to the edomites and the ammonites.(do your research) They are called "Caucasians" because or a point an time in history the ancients of the Europeans lived in the caucus mountains. Through the prophet Obadiya, the Most High had this to say- "The arrogancy of your heart has deceived you, you who live in the cleft of the rock, In the loftiness of your dwelling place, Who say in your heart, Who will bring me down to earth? Though you build high like the eagle, though you set your nest among the stars, from there I will bring you down"(Obadiya verses 3 and 4) it was the most clever swap in history.
Also, what Jews through history were slaves for 400 years? swap. Biblical strongly (although no one knows the day or the hour) to a Messianic return sometime between 2018/2019. Slavery, each time it occurred for the Egyptians and hebrews totaled like 400 years. Add this country, 1619 to 2019 and you have 400. Us called "black" are on the bottom now, that what slavery is-being the lowest of all servants(see Noah's curse) The Most High changed Abram's name to Abra-HAM to symbolize his ancestor. Genesis 15:13 and 14 "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land not that is not theirs, where they will be slaved and oppressed four hundred years. But I will also judge the nation they will serve, and afterwards they will come out with many possesions." Now, if he ordained slavery, then why would he judge them? Those that call themselves "white" need to get over themselves if they actually believe that the Most High ordained slavery!!!!
When the CSA cannoneers fired the first salvo of the American Theological War, also known as the Civil War, every exploding shell over Fort Sumter was being monitored in the throne room of Him who governs the essence, purpose and destiny of all things (Isaiah 45:5-8). Even though the Confederacy was eventually defeated the artillery barrage unleashed some demons of racism that tinges the social, spiritual and economic fabric of America unto this day. One must be careful even among born again Christians in our polarized nation when discussing issues of ethnicity in America (Who can forget all the vitriolic rhetoric, demonic caricatures and racial insults hurled at President Obama from day one?). For this and many other reasons including Act 17:26, I have resolved to leave this nation with less ethnic enmity in our ethos than it was before my entrance so long as He gives me strength and opportunity.
Two things, to this end, I absolutely cannot do lest God deal with me as He does with all hypocrites. First of all, I will not accept any suggestion from any other person of any description that I, as a Black man, am inferior to anyone because of my ethnicity. Secondly, I will not be a party to any suggestion or conversation that blames White people for the horrors of slavery. My agenda is to promote reconciliation between the races. To him that has ears to hear, let him........... !!!!
God is the Governor of all domains, the Architect of all events and the Creator of all things (John 1:1-5). That includes American slavery and all of it s horrific nature. If that is troubling to some people, then please answer these questions: Who decided how Christ would suffer on the Cross and how many of His disciples did NOT suffer before, during and after they embraced His ministry? Can anyone be a Christian and an advocate for racial hatred at the same time? Can anyone, more specifically, say he loves God but proclaims hatred for his brother?
My mission was decided in heaven long before I was born (Jeremiah 1:1-8). I am now closer to eighty years old than I am to seventy. So why should I listen to any distractions at this point?
Slavery was the Lord's work. Let it and its purpose be marvelous in our eyes.
God bless. Keep the Faith.
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God didn't ordain american slavery, but He did take it and turned it around. In truth, He's not through with the descendants of the slaves. He's about to make something special happen with them.
Let His Work always Be Marvelous in Our Eyes
