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Old 10-12-2009, 07:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

The Bible declares over and over that homosexuality is a sin.
No. It doesn't.

Unless you have some strange idea that all homosexuals are idolatrous male temple prostitutes worshipping Canaanite (OT) or Roman (NT) fertility gods?

The KJV incorrectly translated the Hebrew word "qadesh" as sodomite. In most modern English translations it is now correctly translated as "male temple prostitute" or "male shrine prositute." As you see if you click on the links, the word qadesh occurs in Deut 23:17, 1 Kings 14:23, 1 Kings 15:12-13, 1 Kings 22:46, 2 Kings 23:7. You can see the KJV translation of "qadesh" and the corrected modern English translations.

The "sins" of Sodom have nothing to do with homosexuality, but with the terrible treatment of strangers, the poor and the needy. Read a similar story of the treatment of the Levite in Gibeah in Judges 19.

What does the rest of the Bible say about the sins of Sodom? Nope, nothing about homosexuality...it's all abolut the treatment of strangers, pride, idleness and neglect of the poor and needy. Read about the importance of the Abrahamic law of hospitality. to the people of those times.
Quote:
Eze. 16.49, 50 "Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good."
Quote:
Matthew 10:11-15
"Whatever town or village you enter, search for some worthy person there and stay at his house until you leave. As you enter the home, give it your greeting. If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. (NIV)
Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13
When read in context of the whole chapters and the cultures of the times, (and when comparing the prohibitions with the repeated prohibitions with death penalties in Deuteronomy), the Leviticus 18:22 and Levitcus 20:13 verses are also referring to idolatrous male temple prostitutes. The word "Toevah" (often translated in English as "abomination") is used most often when referring to idolatrous practices and refers to something that is "ritually" unclean.

So that's the OT, now for the NT:

1 Romans 26: Paul is addressing the specific problem of gentiles in Rome who had converted to Christianity but who had turned away from God and reverted to worshipping pagan fertility gods, The worshipping practices involved using ritualistic sex orgies in honour of the gods (a common practice in Rome at the time). Paul's use of the Greek phrase "para phusis" only makes sense if the worshippers were heterosexuals who got involved in orgies which also included same-sex which would normally be against their nature. In any case, this letter was not about homosexuals, it's about a specific problem of Roman gentile Christians reverting to idolatry.

1 Corinthians 6:9
In his letter to the Corinthians, Paul uses the Greek words "malakoi" and "arsenokoites". The first time these words were incorrectly translated into English as referring to "homosexuals" was in the Revised Standard Version in 1946. For centuries, this verse used to be used to condemn "masturbators", not homosexuals. There is no support for translating either of these Greek words as "homosexuals".

In Paul's time, the word "malakoi" was used to describe someone who was indolent or soft. For example- a Hellenised Jewish scribe who might wear rich clothing. (Matthew 11:8, Luke 7:25)

There were several Greek words used in Paul's time that he could have used to describe homosexuals if that's who he meant, but he didn't. There are no usages of the word "arsenokoites" in any available texts prior to Paul's usage of the term. (also used in 1 Tim). Many scholars believe he joined two words together -"arsen" and "koites" from the the Greek Septuagint LXX (Greek version of the OT), in which case it is most likely this also refers to male temple prostitutes. Some scholars believe he may have been referring to the Greek practice of pederasty or possibly young male sex slaves. When read in conjunction with the similar list in 1 Timothy, it's possible he was referring to "male sex slaves, the men who used them and the slave traders who traded in them".
Either way, this has nothing to do with homosexuals in general and especially not homosexuals in modern times.

And that's ALL there is.

So...please tell me. Where does "The Bible declare over and over that homosexuality is a sin"? It doesn't.

Last edited by Ceist; 10-12-2009 at 08:01 AM..
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:05 PM
 
20,297 posts, read 15,638,239 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymax View Post
No. It doesn't.

Unless you have some strange idea that all homosexuals are idolatrous male temple prostitutes worshipping Canaanite (OT) or Roman (NT) fertility gods?

The KJV incorrectly translated the Hebrew word "qadesh" as sodomite. In most modern English translations it is now correctly translated as "male temple prostitute" or "male shrine prositute." As you see if you click on the links, the word qadesh occurs in Deut 23:17, 1 Kings 14:23, 1 Kings 15:12-13, 1 Kings 22:46, 2 Kings 23:7. You can see the KJV translation of "qadesh" and the corrected modern English translations.

The "sins" of Sodom have nothing to do with homosexuality, but with the terrible treatment of strangers, the poor and the needy. Read a similar story of the treatment of the Levite in Gibeah in Judges 19.

What does the rest of the Bible say about the sins of Sodom? Nope, nothing about homosexuality...it's all abolut the treatment of strangers, pride, idleness and neglect of the poor and needy. Read about the importance of the Abrahamic law of hospitality. to the people of those times.


Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13
When read in context of the whole chapters and the cultures of the times, (and when comparing the prohibitions with the repeated prohibitions with death penalties in Deuteronomy), the Leviticus 18:22 and Levitcus 20:13 verses are also referring to idolatrous male temple prostitutes. The word "Toevah" (often translated in English as "abomination") is used most often when referring to idolatrous practices and refers to something that is "ritually" unclean.

So that's the OT, now for the NT:

1 Romans 26: Paul is addressing the specific problem of gentiles in Rome who had converted to Christianity but who had turned away from God and reverted to worshipping pagan fertility gods, The worshipping practices involved using ritualistic sex orgies in honour of the gods (a common practice in Rome at the time). Paul's use of the Greek phrase "para phusis" only makes sense if the worshippers were heterosexuals who got involved in orgies which also included same-sex which would normally be against their nature. In any case, this letter was not about homosexuals, it's about a specific problem of Roman gentile Christians reverting to idolatry.

1 Corinthians 6:9
In his letter to the Corinthians, Paul uses the Greek words "malakoi" and "arsenokoites". The first time these words were incorrectly translated into English as referring to "homosexuals" was in the Revised Standard Version in 1946. For centuries, this verse used to be used to condemn "masturbators", not homosexuals. There is no support for translating either of these Greek words as "homosexuals".

In Paul's time, the word "malakoi" was used to describe someone who was indolent or soft. For example- a Hellenised Jewish scribe who might wear rich clothing. (Matthew 11:8, Luke 7:25)

There were several Greek words used in Paul's time that he could have used to describe homosexuals if that's who he meant, but he didn't. There are no usages of the word "arsenokoites" in any available texts prior to Paul's usage of the term. (also used in 1 Tim). Many scholars believe he joined two words together -"arsen" and "koites" from the the Greek Septuagint LXX (Greek version of the OT), in which case it is most likely this also refers to male temple prostitutes. Some scholars believe he may have been referring to the Greek practice of pederasty or possibly young male sex slaves. When read in conjunction with the similar list in 1 Timothy, it's possible he was referring to "male sex slaves, the men who used them and the slave traders who traded in them".
Either way, this has nothing to do with homosexuals in general and especially not homosexuals in modern times.

And that's ALL there is.

So...please tell me. Where does "The Bible declare over and over that homosexuality is a sin"? It doesn't.
Romans 1:26-29 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27) and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

1 Timothy 1:10 And immoral men and homosexuals...

Genesis 19:5 And they called to Lot and said to him, ''Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we many have relations with them.'' 6) BUT Lot went out to them at the doorway, and shut the door behind him, 7) and said, ''Please, my brothers, do not act wickedly. 8) ''Now behold, I have two daughter who have not had relations with man; please let me bring them out to you, and do to them whatever you like; only do nothing to these men, inasmuch as they have come under the shelter of my roof. ( Lot offered up his own daughters for the men of the city to have sex with, but the crowd wanted to have sex with the men [they were really angels] who were guests of Lot's)

Jude 1:7 Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh...

Leviticus 18:22 ''You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abominaton 23) Also, you shall not have intercourse with any animal to be defiled with it, nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it; it is a perversion.

Leviticus 20:13 ''If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; ...

Matthew 19:4-6 Have you not read, that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, 5) and said, ''FOR THIS CAUSE A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND SHALL CLEAVE TO HIS WIFE; AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ON FLESH''? 6) ''Consequently they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.''

Those who pervert themselves in homosexuality often twist and distort the Scriptures into something other than what they clearly say. And it is clear and specific that it is homosexuality that is being addressed. Leviticus 18:22-23 groups homosexuality in with beastiality as being in the same kind of abnormal perversion.

Homosexuality is not an alternative lifestyle. It is nothing less than abnormal perversion.

You can compare the various parallel translations online. You can look at a Greek English Interlinear New Testament Bible. They make it clear that it is homosexuality that is being talked about.

And I did not even include the passages that talk about the male cult prostitutes. But just what is it you think male prostitutes do? That's right. They practice homosexuality. (1 Kings 14:24; 15:11-12; 22:46)

And national acceptance of, and celebration of homosexuality (for instance, the various homosexual parades) brings divine judgment on that nation, and God hands that nation over to even more perversion.

God's word is the final authority, and it means what it says.

Homosexuality is promoted by Satan as a direct attack on the laws of divine establishment--volition, marriage, family, and nationalism. Especially marriage and family.

And again, Leviticus 18:22; 20:13 make it clear. A male shall not lie with a male.
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Old 10-12-2009, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Indianapolis
4,325 posts, read 5,131,452 times
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This is a part message from Jerry Falwell to one of our channelers in 2009:

You are perceiving that the tone of this channeling is not that of an idiotic bigot, but of a man who sincerely tried to follow his spiritual path.
This said, I must also say that instead of singing hosannas around the Throne of God, I found myself in darkness. I sincerely felt that homosexuality was against God, but I found out that I was grievously mistaken. It is not a sin at all, but a normal and natural part of some people's personality. I couldn't avoid this perception, for some who were this way came to me and explained the truth. Needless to say, it was a big shock, and horrifying too, since, as you know, I had based my career on condemning it. And these spirits were very loving to me, which made it even worse.

And from on of the apostles:


“Are there eternal soulmates existing in the spirit world right now who were formerly both males as mortals, and are there eternal soulmates existing in the spirit world right now who were formerly both females as mortals?

If both propositions are indeed true, then it would seem that either one of two things would have to occur on the mortal plane:
  1. Either the unincarnated soul sometimes has the composition of two males to be, or two females to be, or:
  2. If the unincarnated soul always does have a male/female division, then the male has a male soulmate apart from his original female counterpart, and his female counterpart has a female soulmate apart from her original male counterpart.
Are there any other alternative possibilities? Which applies above, if not?

First I will answer: Yes, right now there are eternal soulmates existing in the spirit world who were formerly both males as mortals, and there are also eternal soulmates existing in the spirit world right now who were formerly both females as mortals. And you would be surprised to know how many there are. The answer to the second part is that the unincarnated soul sometimes has the composition of two males to be, or two females to be. But watch out! Both will incarnate in males or females IN THE FUTURE, because despite what the Padgett messages may tell you, the soul has no sex. And to avoid any confusion, I wish to state that the soul has no gender, it is neither female nor male, and that the condition of woman or man is determined exclusively by the physical body, and that definition continues being reflected in the lower spheres of the spirit world in their spiritual bodies, because the appearance of that body is the product of the soul’s creative power, still influenced by its physical experience in the mortal body, but this difference disappears eventually as the soul (the spirit) progresses to higher spheres. You can read the rest here: Justified Violence, and Soulmates. HR 6 Oct 2001

I can give you more if you wish as this topic has been discussed and answered by Jesus and the apostles several times.

Last edited by Reverend1111; 10-12-2009 at 01:52 PM..
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Old 10-12-2009, 05:27 PM
 
Location: Seward, Alaska
2,739 posts, read 7,641,558 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend1111 View Post
This is a part message from Jerry Falwell to one of our channelers in 2009:

You are perceiving that the tone of this channeling is not that of an idiotic bigot, but of a man who sincerely tried to follow his spiritual path.
This said, I must also say that instead of singing hosannas around the Throne of God, I found myself in darkness. I sincerely felt that homosexuality was against God, but I found out that I was grievously mistaken. It is not a sin at all, but a normal and natural part of some people's personality. I couldn't avoid this perception, for some who were this way came to me and explained the truth. Needless to say, it was a big shock, and horrifying too, since, as you know, I had based my career on condemning it. And these spirits were very loving to me, which made it even worse.

And from on of the apostles:


ďAre there eternal soulmates existing in the spirit world right now who were formerly both males as mortals, and are there eternal soulmates existing in the spirit world right now who were formerly both females as mortals?

If both propositions are indeed true, then it would seem that either one of two things would have to occur on the mortal plane:
  1. Either the unincarnated soul sometimes has the composition of two males to be, or two females to be, or:
  2. If the unincarnated soul always does have a male/female division, then the male has a male soulmate apart from his original female counterpart, and his female counterpart has a female soulmate apart from her original male counterpart.
Are there any other alternative possibilities? Which applies above, if not?

First I will answer: Yes, right now there are eternal soulmates existing in the spirit world who were formerly both males as mortals, and there are also eternal soulmates existing in the spirit world right now who were formerly both females as mortals. And you would be surprised to know how many there are. The answer to the second part is that the unincarnated soul sometimes has the composition of two males to be, or two females to be. But watch out! Both will incarnate in males or females IN THE FUTURE, because despite what the Padgett messages may tell you, the soul has no sex. And to avoid any confusion, I wish to state that the soul has no gender, it is neither female nor male, and that the condition of woman or man is determined exclusively by the physical body, and that definition continues being reflected in the lower spheres of the spirit world in their spiritual bodies, because the appearance of that body is the product of the soulís creative power, still influenced by its physical experience in the mortal body, but this difference disappears eventually as the soul (the spirit) progresses to higher spheres. You can read the rest here: Justified Violence, and Soulmates. HR 6 Oct 2001

I can give you more if you wish as this topic has been discussed and answered by Jesus and the apostles several times.


So...you are basing part of your current belief system on a channeled spirit that claims to be "Jerry Falwell"?

Wow...you are WAAAAAYYYYYY over in the deep end. With all due respect, I think you are decieved. There are so many roads that seem right, and that claim to have the truth, but only one path (and a very narrow one at that) that leads to eternal life with God...

Bud
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Old 10-13-2009, 03:25 AM
 
20,297 posts, read 15,638,239 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Actually hateful people declare it over and over with lies and misunderstanding.
Speaking the truth about anything that the word of God declares to be the truth is not being hateful. The Bible declares homosexuality to be a sin.

Now, everybody had better understand this. There are far worse sins than homosexuality. Hatred, judging, anger, revenge motivation, prejudice, and many other sins are ALL far worse sins than homosexualtiy.

And there is never Any excuse whatsoever for anyone to seek to cause harm or to judge anyone because of their homosexuality. Or for any other sin. Discipline and judgment for sin belongs to the Lord. And No one has any right to think that they are acting on God's behalf by taking action against any group of people that are habitually practicing sin. Anyone who commits a crime against someone because they are homosexual will answer both to the Lord and to the law of the land. Anyone who is prejudiced needs to be far more concerned about his prejudice then about someone elses sin.
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Old 10-13-2009, 04:21 AM
 
Location: Indianapolis
4,325 posts, read 5,131,452 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BudinAk View Post
So...you are basing part of your current belief system on a channeled spirit that claims to be "Jerry Falwell"?

Wow...you are WAAAAAYYYYYY over in the deep end. With all due respect, I think you are decieved. There are so many roads that seem right, and that claim to have the truth, but only one path (and a very narrow one at that) that leads to eternal life with God...

Bud
Look, Bud, I'm not deceived and it's never about the messenger. it's always about the message. I have the keys to heaven and i will at some point in my journey see God. I have no doubts whatsoever. Just because I learn from former humans does not mean they are wrong. You learn from the bible, I learn from former humans. They are both fallible. Only God is infallible.
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Old 10-13-2009, 06:07 AM
 
17,853 posts, read 11,751,366 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Romans 1:26-29 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27) and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
Why keep quoting an English translation? Once again, in the original Greek phrases Paul used, this verse only makes sense if Paul is talking about heterosexuals having sex with those of the same sex while being involved in ritual worshipping practices in the temples of the Roman fertility gods. Read the whole letter. It's about a specific group of ex-Christians who reverted back to pagan worship, NOT about homosexuals. To read a condemnation of all homosexuals into these verses, is twisting the verses far beyond their context and shows no understanding at all of either the culture, philosophy and religious practices of the time, or of homosexuality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

1 Timothy 1:10 And immoral men and homosexuals...
Again, see where I mentioned the Greek word "arsenokoites". It doesn't mean homosexuals. It was FIRST mistranslated as "homosexuals" in the 1946 Revised Standard Version. The early church fathers never used this word to refer to homosexuals. No secular sources used this word to refer to homosexuals. There were Greek words meaning homosexuals that Paul could have used if that's what he meant. He didn't use them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Genesis 19:5 And they called to Lot and said to him, ''Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we many have relations with them.'' 6) BUT Lot went out to them at the doorway, and shut the door behind him, 7) and said, ''Please, my brothers, do not act wickedly. 8) ''Now behold, I have two daughter who have not had relations with man; please let me bring them out to you, and do to them whatever you like; only do nothing to these men, inasmuch as they have come under the shelter of my roof. ( Lot offered up his own daughters for the men of the city to have sex with, but the crowd wanted to have sex with the men [they were really angels] who were guests of Lot's)
You seriously don't know about the Abrahamic Law of Hospitality? What father would throw his virgin daughters to be gang raped when he could just throw the strangers out to the mob? It was more important for Lot to protect the stangers under his roof, than protect his daughters. That's how important this Law was. You have missed the whole point of the story.
That sort of behaviour by gangs of men (straight men) towards strangers was common (think of prisons today for example). It was used to intimidate and humiliate strangers by treating them no better than they would a woman. It was about control, not some sort of "homosexual" lust. You have very strange ideas about homosexuals, and apparently no knowledge of the historical customs of the times if you think this story was about homosexuals. You're reading into it what you want to read into it (or what you've been told to read into it.).

Did you not read the similar story of the Levite in Judges 19:22 I linked to? Same sort of thing happened where the Levite stranger was under another man's protection and the mob wanted to "know" him. Because of the Law of Hospitality that required him to protect any stranger under his roof, instead of handing the stranger over to the mob, the master of the house offered up his virgin daughter and the Levite's concubine to the mob, then threw out the concubine to the mob - who abused and raped her all night. Obviously this is not about homosexuals. And neither is the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Jude 1:7 Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh...
The Greek word used here is "heterosarkos" which literally means "different flesh". It's referring to the fact that the strangers under Lot's roof were angels -"different". Nothing to do with homosexuals. The "immorality" was the abuse of the Law of Hospitality by the inhabitants of Sodoms-their terrible treatment of strangers. It's ironic that today we would consider a father tossing his virgin daughters out to be raped by a mob to be "grossly immoral".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Leviticus 18:22 ''You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abominaton 23) Also, you shall not have intercourse with any animal to be defiled with it, nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it; it is a perversion.

Leviticus 20:13 ''If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; ...
Read these chapters in context. Again, this refers to idolatrous worship of Canaanite pagan fertility gods by male temple prostitutes. The verse preceding 18:22 is about the idolatrous practice of offering up babies to the fires in the arms of a bronze statute of the Canaanite God Molech (didn;t you notice the references to Molech at the beginning of chapters 18 and 19?) and the following verse is about the idolatrous practice of having sex with animals in worship of the fertility gods. It's all about not following the practices of the Canaanites (and the Egyptians)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Matthew 19:4-6 Have you not read, that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, 5) and said, ''FOR THIS CAUSE A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND SHALL CLEAVE TO HIS WIFE; AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ON FLESH''? 6) ''Consequently they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.''
The verse from Matthew you used is a story about Jesus being questioned about Divorce. Perhaps you also missed the following verse where Jesus refers to those born as eunuchs (ie those born without a desire for women-ie homosexuals).
Quote:
12For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs(Q) for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

Those who pervert themselves in homosexuality often twist and distort the Scriptures into something other than what they clearly say. And it is clear and specific that it is homosexuality that is being addressed. Leviticus 18:22-23 groups homosexuality in with beastiality as being in the same kind of abnormal perversion.
The twisting and distorting is being done by those who read into the text what is not there - to support their own prejudices. Leviticus verses 18:21-23 "groups" together 3 idolatrous worshipping practices (right after a break in the text with "I am the Lord"): Sacrificing babies in the fires of of a bronze statue of Molech, using temple prostitutes in worship of the fertility gods. And bestiality in the practice of worshipping fertility gods. All these were done by either the Egyptians or Canaanites which is clearly stated in the begining of both the chapters Lev 18 and 19. Read up on the history and religious practices of the Canaanites and Egyptians and it's obvious what this is referring to. Go look up all the verses in Deuteronomy which repeat the same prohibitions that have death penalities in Lev 20. It may become more clear to you that what is being referred to is specifically male temple prostitutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Homosexuality is not an alternative lifestyle. It is nothing less than abnormal perversion.
You are right. Homosexuality is not a "lifestyle", it's an orientation. Homosexuality is a normal variant of human sexuality- always has been and always will be.
Australian Psychological Society : Sexual orientation and homosexuality (http://www.psychology.org.au/publications/tip_sheets/orientation/ - broken link)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You can compare the various parallel translations online. You can look at a Greek English Interlinear New Testament Bible. They make it clear that it is homosexuality that is being talked about.
I have. And you could read dozens of books by biblical scholars, language experts and historians and study the texts hermaneutically - which make it clear that it is NOT homosexuals in general being talked about, but specific types of same-sex behavior involved in idolatrous worship, or the threat of rape by straight men of strangers, or young male sex slaves. Or you could read dozens of books by experts in the human sciences. Or hundreds of studies on human behaviour and sexuality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
And I did not even include the passages that talk about the male cult prostitutes. But just what is it you think male prostitutes do? That's right. They practice homosexuality. (1 Kings 14:24; 15:11-12; 22:46)
No doubt you didn't include them because you won't often find those verses used by anti-gay authors. Probably because they make it obvious that almost all references to any same-sex behavior are in the context of idolatrous worship.
By your logic, ALL heterosexual men should be condemned because some heterosexual men commit rape or were involved in idolatrous worship using female priestesses. Or ALL heterosexual women should be condemned because some heterosexual women were temple prostitutes. There's simply no logic in your statement. Unless you think ALL homosexuals today (or then) worship pagan Canaanite or Roman fertility gods as sacred prostitutes??? I've never met even ONE homosexual who is a male temple prostitute...have you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
And national acceptance of, and celebration of homosexuality (for instance, the various homosexual parades) brings divine judgment on that nation, and God hands that nation over to even more perversion.
You do realise that gay people don't spend their whole lives at gay parades? Many have never even gone to one. Gay parades are a reaction against prejudice. But is that all you know about homosexuals? Perhaps you could find out more about homosexuals - Get to know a few homosexual couples and their families. The majority of homosexuals I know lead fairly average lives. You know, like working hard, being law abiding citizens, caring about their loved ones, many are raising children. In fact most of the homosexuals I know work in industries which involve community care or teaching or nursing etc. The homosexuals I know, have a strong social conscience and a strong desire to help others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God's word is the final authority, and it means what it says.

Homosexuality is promoted by Satan as a direct attack on the laws of divine establishment--volition, marriage, family, and nationalism. Especially marriage and family.

And again, Leviticus 18:22; 20:13 make it clear. A male shall not lie with a male.
But you don't appear to actually know what the Bible says (or doesn't say) about homosexuality. You appear to be just repeating the eisegeis of anti-homosexual apologists. As for the rest of your statement...just pure prejudice and lack of knowledge about homosexuals.

Last edited by Ceist; 10-13-2009 at 07:32 AM..
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Old 10-13-2009, 06:25 AM
 
17,853 posts, read 11,751,366 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Speaking the truth about anything that the word of God declares to be the truth is not being hateful. The Bible declares homosexuality to be a sin.

Now, everybody had better understand this. There are far worse sins than homosexuality. Hatred, judging, anger, revenge motivation, prejudice, and many other sins are ALL far worse sins than homosexualtiy.

And there is never Any excuse whatsoever for anyone to seek to cause harm or to judge anyone because of their homosexuality. Or for any other sin. Discipline and judgment for sin belongs to the Lord. And No one has any right to think that they are acting on God's behalf by taking action against any group of people that are habitually practicing sin. Anyone who commits a crime against someone because they are homosexual will answer both to the Lord and to the law of the land. Anyone who is prejudiced needs to be far more concerned about his prejudice then about someone elses sin.
Did you suddenly get a guilty conscience and remember Christ's teachings of loving one another and not judging others? After your anti-homosexual, prejudiced, judgemental comments about homosexuals?

You hoist yourself on your own petard by your own words: "Anyone who is prejudiced needs to be far more concerned about his prejudice then about someone elses sin". Look to your own actions and words. You are spreading intolerance and ignorance and encouraging contempt and prejudice towards homosexuals by your posts.

One cure for prejudice is knowledge. I've offered up a few areas you could spend some time researching to increase your knowledge. I also suggest you get to know some average run of the mill homosexuals with an open mind and an open heart. Especially those in loving committed relationships (or marriages now in some areas) raising families.

Last edited by Ceist; 10-13-2009 at 07:34 AM..
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Old 10-13-2009, 07:32 AM
 
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Why keep quoting an English translation? Once again, in the original Greek phrases Paul used, this verse only makes sense if Paul is talking about heterosexuals having sex with those of the same sex while being involved in ritual worshipping practices in the temples of the Roman fertility gods. Read the whole letter. It's about a specific group of ex-Christians who reverted back to pagan worship, NOT about homosexuals. To read a condemnation of all homosexuals into these verses, is twisting the verses far beyond their context and shows no understanding at all of either the culture, philosophy and religious practices of the time, or of homosexuality.



Again, see where I mentioned the Greek word "arsenokoites". It doesn't mean homosexuals. It was FIRST mistranslated as "homosexuals" in the 1946 Revised Standard Version. The early church fathers never used this word to refer to homosexuals. No secular sources used this word to refer to homosexuals. There were Greek words meaning homosexuals that Paul could have used if that's what he meant. He didn't use them.

You seriously don't know about the Abrahamic Law of Hospitality? What father would throw his virgin daughters to be gang raped when he could just throw the strangers out to the mob? It was more important for Lot to protect the stangers under his roof, than protect his daughters. That's how important this Law was. You have missed the whole point of the story.
That sort of behaviour by gangs of men (straight men) towards strangers was common (think of prisons today for example). It was used to intimidate and humiliate strangers by treating them no better than they would a woman. It was about control, not some sort of "homosexual" lust. You have very strange ideas about homosexuals, and apparently no knowledge of the historical customs of the times if you think this story was about homosexuals. You're reading into it what you want to read into it (or what you've been told to read into it.).

Did you not read the similar story of the Levite in Judges 19:22 I linked to? Same sort of thing happened where the Levite stranger was under another man's protection and the mob wanted to "know" him. Because of the Law of Hospitality that required him to protect any stranger under his roof, instead of handing the stranger over to the mob, the master of the house offered up his virgin daughter and the Levite's concubine to the mob, then threw out the concubine to the mob - who abused and raped her all night. Obviously this is not about homosexuals. And neither is the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.

The Greek word used here is "heterosarkos" which literally means "different flesh". It's referring to the fact that the strangers under Lot's roof were angels -"different". Nothing to do with homosexuals. The "immorality" was the abuse of the Law of Hospitality by the inhabitants of Sodoms-their terrible treatment of strangers. It's ironic that today we would consider a father tossing his virgin daughters out to be raped by a mob to be "grossly immoral".

Read these chapters in context. Again, this refers to idolatrous worship of Canaanite pagan fertility gods by male temple prostitutes. The verse preceding 18:22 is about the idolatrous practice of offering up babies to the fires in the arms of a bronze statute of the Canaanite God Molech (didn;t you notice the references to Molech at the beginning of chapters 18 and 19?) and the following verse is about the idolatrous practice of having sex with animals in worship of the fertility gods. It's all about not following the practices of the Canaanites (and the Egyptians)

The verse from Matthew you used is a story about Jesus being questioned about Divorce. Perhaps you also missed the following verse where Jesus refers to those born as eunuchs (ie those born without a desire for women-ie homosexuals).


The twisting and distorting is being done by those who read into the text what is not there - to support their own prejudices. Leviticus verses 18:21-23 "groups" together 3 idolatrous worshipping practices (right after a break in the text with "I am the Lord"): Sacrificing babies in the fires of of a bronze statue of Molech, using temple prostitutes in worship of the fertility gods. And bestiality in the practice of worshipping fertility gods. All these were done by either the Egyptians or Canaanites which is clearly stated in the begining of both the chapters Lev 18 and 19. Read up on the history and religious practices of the Canaanites and Egyptians and it's obvious what this is referring to. Go look up all the verses in Deuteronomy which repeat the same prohibitions that have death penalities in Lev 20. It may become more clear to you that what is being referred to is specifically male temple prostitutes.


You are right. Homosexuality is not a "lifestyle", it's an orientation. Homosexuality is a normal variant of human sexuality- always has been and always will be.
Australian Psychological Society : Sexual orientation and homosexuality (http://www.psychology.org.au/publications/tip_sheets/orientation/ - broken link)


I have. And you could read dozens of books by biblical scholars, language experts and historians and study the texts hermaneutically - which make it clear that it is NOT homosexuals in general being talked about, but specific types of same-sex behavior involved in idolatrous worship, or the threat of rape by straight men of strangers, or young male sex slaves. Or you could read dozens of books by experts in the human sciences. Or hundreds of studies on human behaviour and sexuality.
No doubt you didn't include them because you won't often find those verses used by anti-gay authors because it makes it obvious that almost all references to any same-sex behavior are inthe context of idolatrous worship.
By your logic, ALL heterosexual men should be condemned because some heterosexual men commit rape or were involved in idolatrous worship using female priestesses. Or ALL heterosexual women should be condemned because some heterosexual women were temple prostitutes. There's simply no logic in your statement.

You do realise that gay people don't spend their whole lives at gay parades? Many have never even gone to one. Gay parades are a reaction against prejudice. But is that all you know about homosexuals? Perhaps you could find out more about homosexuals - Get to know a few homosexual couples and their families. The majority of homosexuals I know lead fairly average lives. You know, like working hard, being law abiding citizens, caring about their loved ones, many are raising children. In fact most of the homosexuals I know work in industries which involve community care or teaching or nursing etc. The homosexuals I know, have a strong social conscience and a strong desire to help others.

But you don't appear to actually know what the Bible says (or doesn't say) about homosexuality. You appear to be just repeating the eisegeis of anti-homosexual apologists. As for the rest of your statement...just pure prejudice and lack of knowledge about homosexuals.
As I said, those who ingage in homosexual edit for suitabiltydeny what the Scriptures say, and twist and distort the Bible in order to justify their sin.

Last edited by june 7th; 10-13-2009 at 08:25 AM..
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Old 10-13-2009, 07:49 AM
 
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As I said, those who ingage in homosexual Moderator cut: Orphaned deny what the Scriptures say, and twist and distort the Bible in order to justify their sin.
*sigh* You can lead some people to knowledge, but clearly you can't make them think.

I'll leave you with one of my favourite quotes:

"You know you've created God in your own image when your God hates the same people you do".

Last edited by june 7th; 10-13-2009 at 08:45 AM..
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