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Old 10-11-2009, 12:58 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,372,769 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Wrong ... All we do is talk repentance ... Only to the fundamentalists ... We talk about fundies repenting from their false religion and repenting of violence and repenting of greed and hate ... Pretty much what Christ talked about during his entire ministry.
You know something. I say you have a false doctrine, and you say fundies have a false religion. Last I knew, they believe in Jesus Christ, the WHOLE way. So if that is false, keep whatever it is that you believe in, as this is a Christian Forum. I do not claim you are not a follower of Jesus Christ, so I rebuke your words for saying that others don't, to which you don't even know their hearts. There is only one Judge, and you are not Him.

This is that pride that needs put to shame.
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Old 10-11-2009, 01:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
Okay...But even those who "know God" sin.
I was talking of the willful unrepentant sin. If the Holy Spirit doesn't convict a person of this sin, then I seriously would question their standing with God.

Quote:
June sorta gets the feeling that it's one of those "try-though-I-might" unavoidable aspects of Christian life.
But the "try" part is the turning away from sin part. It is called repentance. People stumble all the time. We probably will as long as we reside in the flesh, although e are called to not walk in the flesh, but rather the spirit. Easier said than done.

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Nobody is perfect.
Jesus was, and He is our example. Not to just sin no more, but rather be called to walk in a Higher Way.

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But nonetheless, she would tend to lean towards the notion that remorse in those who have sinned is a far more effective means towards bringing about a transformation.
Of course. June understands this perfectly then.

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Shaming of either others, or oneself has always struck June has having terribly toxic results.
Shame is the result of a prideful heart turning. I am reminded of the show I saw last night for the first time. "A Walk to Remember". The kid was extremely prideful, and rebellious. It wasn't until he met "real" unconditional love, that his shame became manifested at what he was, and the end result was a repentance from that person into a wonderful person.

If only people could see the true "Light" within the hearts of Christians, and even those who do not claim that title, yet walk in that Light. Lke you for example. Maybe the world, full of pride, would realize it really is not all about them, and maybe it is about something Higher than themselves.

Quote:
(Which she could postulate would only perpetuate sin that much more...) --But what does June know? Just her thoughts...
Much more than she gives herself credit for.
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Old 10-11-2009, 01:41 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,387,998 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
I was talking of the willful unrepentant sin. If the Holy Spirit doesn't convict a person of this sin, then I seriously would question their standing with God.



But the "try" part is the turning away from sin part. It is called repentance. People stumble all the time. We probably will as long as we reside in the flesh, although e are called to not walk in the flesh, but rather the spirit. Easier said than done.



Jesus was, and He is our example. Not to just sin no more, but rather be called to walk in a Higher Way.



Of course. June understands this perfectly then.

What you say is all lovey-dovey but inadequate as defined by the video...

According to this video: You cannot and must not share the Word of God without these things;
repentance, judgment, hell, heaven (at least there's heaven), self-denial, discussion of sin, laying down of the Law of God against which the sinner is broken, sense of guilt, sense of condemnation, fear of eternal torment, eternal judgment, the reality of the Law of God, the reality of condemnation, eternal hell, warning of God's wrath, a crushing of the sinner under the weight of his violation of the Law of God, sinner must stand before God guilty.

That is so very clearly stated in the first video yet you just tried to compromise that.. so your gospel (since it doesn't contain all of the above) is also inadequate.

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Shame is the result of a prideful heart turning. I am reminded of the show I saw last night for the first time. "A Walk to Remember". The kid was extremely prideful, and rebellious. It wasn't until he met "real" unconditional love, that his shame became manifested at what he was, and the end result was a repentance from that person into a wonderful person.
but that is not what the video said... The video said that there must be laying down of the Law of God against which the sinner is broken, sense of guilt, a crushing of the sinner under the weight of his violation of the Law of God, sinner must stand before God guilty.

Which implies that before you can be saved the sinner must be broken, guilty, crushed, and stand guilty before God... How is shame then a result a prideful heart turning? It is the crushing guilt and shame which produces the prideful heart turning....

Either way you look at it.. this "adequate gospel" is all about shame not humility. Humility is the quality or condition of being humble; modest opinion or estimate of one's own importance, rank, etc.... shame is a painful emotion caused by a strong sense of guilt, embarrassment, unworthiness, or disgrace.

Proverbs 15:33 He who ignores discipline despises himself, but whoever heeds correction gains understanding. The fear of the LORD teaches a man wisdom, and humility comes before honor.

Colossians 2:18; 20-23 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

That is the "adequate gospel" given by the video.. FALSE HUMILITY also called SHAME and lacks any value in restraining sin or indulgence of the senses.

Mark 15:18-19 and they began to acclaim Him, "Hail, King of the Jews!" They kept hitting him on the head with a stick, spitting on him, and kneeling in front of him with false humility.

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If only people could see the true "Light" within the hearts of Christians, and even those who do not claim that title, yet walk in that Light. Lke you for example. Maybe the world, full of pride, would realize it really is not all about them, and maybe it is about something Higher than themselves.

Much more than she gives herself credit for.
I agree that June has a good grasp of the Message of the Bible. It is that video that is the problem!

I wonder if you can tell me what you think of the term "false humility" as I showed in the verses above.. Do you suppose we can say shame is false humility and that this "adequate gospel" is actually preaching "false humility" which was an attribute of the Pharisees not the followers of Christ?
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Old 10-11-2009, 01:55 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,199,823 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
You know something. I say you have a false doctrine, and you say fundies have a false religion. Last I knew, they believe in Jesus Christ, the WHOLE way. So if that is false, keep whatever it is that you believe in, as this is a Christian Forum. I do not claim you are not a follower of Jesus Christ, so I rebuke your words for saying that others don't, to which you don't even know their hearts. There is only one Judge, and you are not Him.

This is that pride that needs put to shame.
First of all, religion and faith are not the same thing. True religion is charity ... False religion is any established framework which claims to be the only true way to relate to God. Christ himself is our mediator and not a building or the men inside it who ration and piece mill the message they believe to represent Christ/God. The clergy is only an extreme example of this ... But the whole method of organized religion is perverse. Originally the community of Christians was just that, various communities in different places that believed in Christ and worked with one another in a support structure.

What i believe to be the false religion of fundamentalism in any form, Christian, Muslim, or any other, is different than my complaint about the false doctrines which are taught within those false religions to support their existence and extort the laity into submission under such man made machinations.

I'm sorry if that upsets you ...

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 10-11-2009 at 02:23 PM..
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Old 10-11-2009, 02:43 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,118,147 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
June's just curious:

Just how effective is shame in bringing people to Christ?

She really would like an honest answer to that in the aftermath of having watched the first video. (She's debating whether to watch the second.)

Also, given the fact that Jesus simply said "Follow me" as opposed to shaming and humiliating people into doing so, what exactly would the true definition of an "inadequate Gospel" be?

-Because she thinks she just might have heard one?
This is how most fundamentalist and orthodox christians witness or..."win" people for Christ. The shameful thing is that they condemn and humiliate people and don't win anything but a false confession of faith, which over a short period of time leads to nothing. I prefer to share the love of God and how God wants us to live in a way that is pleasing to Him. There is no need to berate people over the head with their sin...they already know they are sinners and don't need reminding.
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Old 10-11-2009, 02:56 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,118,147 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Shame is needed for the prideful.
Shame is needed for those who knowing God, sin anyways.
No it's not...you share the gospel message and if people are not willing to receive it, you shake the dust off your feet and move on. First and foremost we should be sharing God's love and what our lives can be like if we follow Him and live to please Him. Shaming someone who is not ready to receive the gospel either ticks them off and draw them farther away from God or just produces false temporary repentance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
He did shame and humilitate the Pharisees. Those who are prideful need shame and humility.
He didn't shame them...he warned and threatened them about their behavior and the consequences of it....huge difference.
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Old 10-11-2009, 03:27 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,372,769 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
No it's not...you share the gospel message and if people are not willing to receive it, you shake the dust off your feet and move on.
Sharing the gospel message with the prideful man is hard for sure, because unless he is crushed by the weight of his sin, then how else will he know humility? Need some verss?

Pride {goes} before destruction, And a haughty spirit before stumbling.

Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, But humility {goes} before honor.

Haughty eyes and a proud heart, The lamp of the wicked, is sin.

"Proud," "Haughty," "Scoffer," are his names, Who acts with insolent pride.

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First and foremost we should be sharing God's love and what our lives can be like if we follow Him and live to please Him.
Agreed.


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Shaming someone who is not ready to receive the gospel either ticks them off and draw them farther away from God or just produces false temporary repentance.
We don't shame, the Spirit does. Big difference.


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He didn't shame them...he warned and threatened them about their behavior and the consequences of it....huge difference.
Really? I beg to differ, or else why did they hate Him so much to kill Him? "Woe to you".... is bringing them to another level, down from their proudful stances. It talks of it over and over again. Long Robes,,,etc, etc.
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Old 10-11-2009, 04:46 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,567,579 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post


I got it the first time, but was reinforcing what John and Jesus taught, because UR's don't talk repentance, just acceptance.
Hey there,
You've been here a long time and should know better than to make a statement like that. . That's more a UU belief perhaps than a CU belief.

Seriously, you did not know that almost 100% of CUs teach you must have a change of heart to experience any tangible benefit from God's redemptive power?
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Old 10-11-2009, 05:18 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,199,823 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Hey there,
You've been here a long time and should know better than to make a statement like that. . That's more a UU belief perhaps than a CU belief.

Seriously, you did not know that almost 100% of CUs teach you must have a change of heart to experience any tangible benefit from God's redemptive power?

This is just the latest strawman argument that HotinAZ has been throwing around to discredit the teaching of the word of reconciliation. Its not by any means a new strawman argument, just the one he has been throwing around lately.
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Old 10-11-2009, 06:13 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,372,769 times
Reputation: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Hey there,
You've been here a long time and should know better than to make a statement like that. . That's more a UU belief perhaps than a CU belief.

Seriously, you did not know that almost 100% of CUs teach you must have a change of heart to experience any tangible benefit from God's redemptive power?
Rigghhttt. That is the main crux of what I hear the UR's teach.

Gotcha.
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