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Old 10-11-2009, 09:07 PM
 
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twin.spin,

Do you have any thoughts about svenM's question, which is ...

Where does judgment in Hebrews 9:27 imply everlasting punishment or anything like that?
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Old 10-11-2009, 09:09 PM
 
Location: southern california
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revelations implies big time a judgement day. i think its guna happen.
the message is meant for everybody.
many are living like they have bet their entire wad on there is no god and there is no judgement day.
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Old 10-11-2009, 11:59 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,861,574 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tm55 View Post
twin.spin,

Do you have any thoughts about svenM's question, which is ...

Where does judgment in Hebrews 9:27 imply everlasting punishment or anything like that?
"Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment" Hebrews 9:27

tm55,

My thought is that Paul in his usual style, builds one thought upon another. Then he builds one chapter of thoughts on to another chapter to form the complete lesson God wants us to learn. What comes to my mind is in the first part of 9:27 is
  1. that a person is destined. Destined is defined as "to determine beforehand"........ Webster dic.
  2. This "determination beforehand" rule is done by sovereign God, not by man.
  3. That reincarnation doesn't happen or we have multiple chances after death, man lives\dies\judged once.
  4. At death, that persons life "determines beforehand" what is going to be judged upon. You don't have the opportunity anymore to affect the verdict after death.
Throughout Hebrews, Paul speaks on what the standard is that we are judged, by what makes us presentable that will please God. It is that "determines beforehand" that produces the verdict when we face the judge. There is nothing after death that determines our eternal fate.

The purpose in being face to face with a judge is to either be either convicted or acquitted. As Hebrews 10:26-27 says:

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God"

This is the verdict of the judge we shall meet face to face:

Hebrews 10:38-39

"But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him."
But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, (one group of people, those on the left of Jesus) ... but of those who believe and are saved." (the other group, those on the right side of Jesus)

Hebrews 9:27 is not only about the unbeliever who never hears the Truth, but also is speaking to the person who believes then rejects or hears the truth and not believes.

Last edited by twin.spin; 10-12-2009 at 12:10 AM..
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Old 10-12-2009, 01:45 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,425,712 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
"Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment" Hebrews 9:27

tm55,

My thought is that Paul in his usual style, builds one thought upon another. Then he builds one chapter of thoughts on to another chapter to form the complete lesson God wants us to learn. What comes to my mind is in the first part of 9:27 is
  1. that a person is destined. Destined is defined as "to determine beforehand"........ Webster dic.
  2. This "determination beforehand" rule is done by sovereign God, not by man.
  3. That reincarnation doesn't happen or we have multiple chances after death, man lives\dies\judged once.
  4. At death, that persons life "determines beforehand" what is going to be judged upon. You don't have the opportunity anymore to affect the verdict after death.
Throughout Hebrews, Paul speaks on what the standard is that we are judged, by what makes us presentable that will please God. It is that "determines beforehand" that produces the verdict when we face the judge. There is nothing after death that determines our eternal fate.

The purpose in being face to face with a judge is to either be either convicted or acquitted. As Hebrews 10:26-27 says:

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God"

This is the verdict of the judge we shall meet face to face:

Hebrews 10:38-39

"But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him."
But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, (one group of people, those on the left of Jesus) ... but of those who believe and are saved." (the other group, those on the right side of Jesus)

Hebrews 9:27 is not only about the unbeliever who never hears the Truth, but also is speaking to the person who believes then rejects or hears the truth and not believes.

There is no more sacrifice for sins but isn't the wages of sin death? So if you die... haven't you paid for your sins?
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Old 10-12-2009, 09:54 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,861,574 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
There is no more sacrifice for sins but isn't the wages of sin death? So if you die... haven't you paid for your sins?
The answer is ultimalty no when I'm speaking to a universalist. What is apparent is that when somebody said that UR takes the purpose of Jesus dying away, is clearly expressed in the last part of the post.."haven't you paid for your sins?"

It would behoove you to understand whom it is you're listening to Kat. Why is it surprising that some say UR is Satanic or the best one to date that its religious atheism... .."haven't you paid for your sins?"

Last edited by twin.spin; 10-12-2009 at 10:29 AM.. Reason: just because some might not know the history
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Old 10-12-2009, 10:07 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,486,743 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
...but after this the judgment (Hebrews 9:27)



this verse is often used as a "killerverse" against the teaching of the reconciliation of the whole [universe] (Col. 1:20), I don't understand in which manner this verse contradicts that eventually all creatures will be saved.

For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4:6)

where does judgment in Hebrews 9:27 imply everlasting punishment or anything like that? In 1 Peter judgment seems to be something positive.
1 Peter is not about dead people being preached to in the afterlife or being judged, all their judgment had been accomplished when they were alive. Peter was talking about all the believers who received Christ while they were living but who had died by the time Peter wrote that letter.
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Old 10-12-2009, 10:37 AM
 
29 posts, read 45,159 times
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twin.spin,

1. Paul probably didn't write the book of Hebrews.

2. Again, the question is whether the Hebrews 9:27 judgment (which is probably the same as the White Throne judgment) implies in any why that any punishments that are meated out will never end.
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Old 10-12-2009, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,425,712 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
The answer is ultimalty no when I'm speaking to a universalist. What is apparent is that when somebody said that UR takes the purpose of Jesus dying away, is clearly expressed in the last part of the post.."haven't you paid for your sins?"

It would behoove you to understand whom it is you're listening to Kat. Why is it surprising that some say UR is Satanic or the best one to date that its religious atheism... .."haven't you paid for your sins?"
I just said that death is the wages of sin... Romans right?

And so if you die haven't you paid the wages?

Jesus promised no death before the wages are paid but if you are dead... they are paid...

what is satanic and diminishing of Christ in that? Christ paid for them but ultimately when you died the wages are paid....

So Christ is saying...let me pay for them while you yet live!! So that you can LIVE FULLY...

Wages of sin=death death=wages paid...

right?
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:16 PM
 
Location: Germany
1,662 posts, read 1,720,818 times
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Quote:
That reincarnation doesn't happen or we have multiple chances after death, man lives\dies\judged once.
but this verse says nothing about the result of the judgment, I also believe that people will be judged but was has judgment to do with everlasting punishment?
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Old 10-13-2009, 10:21 AM
 
20,398 posts, read 15,765,671 times
Reputation: 7575
Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
...but after this the judgment (Hebrews 9:27)

this verse is often used as a "killerverse" against the teaching of the reconciliation of the whole [universe] (Col. 1:20), I don't understand in which manner this verse contradicts that eventually all creatures will be saved.

For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4:6)

where does judgment in Hebrews 9:27 imply everlasting punishment or anything like that? In 1 Peter judgment seems to be something positive.
Relate Hebrews 9:27 to:

John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; BUT (and it's a big but) he who does not obey (the command to believe) the Son SHALL NOT SEE LIFE, but the wrath of God (JUDGMENT) abides on him.

Back to Hebrews 9:27 ''...it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes JUDGMENT.''

The judgment is ''he who does not believe shall not see life.'' The judgment is the second death, the lake of fire (Rev. 20:14) where they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev.20:10)

Relate Hebrews 9:27 to:

John 11:25 '' Jesus said to her, ''I am the resurrection and the life; HE WHO BELIEVES in Me shall live even if he dies, (the converse meaning is that if he does not believe in Christ, he shall NOT live [judgment]) 26) and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. (the converse meaning is that he who does not believe SHALL DIE. [ JUDGMENT] ) DO YOU BELIEVE THIS?''


Colossians 1:20 ''and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross...,'' simply means that Christ paid the penalty for sin for the entire human race, which removes sin as a barrier between man and God, and means that sin is not an issue in salvation. BUT!!! The issue now is, Will you believe in Christ so that reconciliation will be applied to you, or will you reject Christ and remain in condemnation forever?
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