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Old 10-11-2009, 05:08 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,197,872 times
Reputation: 892

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Quote:
Originally Posted by whos'who View Post
thats terrible, either God dont love all or, man teaching is taking over.


Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
That's going to up God.....



All we know is that: Now for the other side:
  • For the LORD your God is a merciful God Deuteronomy 4:31
  • From the womb your are my God Psalm 22:10
  • The message of Jesus is heard by John in the womb even through the mother's ears Luke 1:44
  • your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost. Matthew 18:14
  • "See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven." Matthew 18:10
Now about your "decision theology" that isn't scriptural.
  • You did not choose me, but I chose you John 15:16
  • Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you even at my mother'sbreast. Psalm 22:9
  • I took you from the ends of the earth, from its farthest corners I called you. I said, 'You are my servant'; I have chosen you and have not rejected you." Isaiah 41:9
  • "For many are invited, but few are chosen." Matthew 22:14
  • "but I have chosen you out of the world." John 15:19
Ephesians 2:8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God

Ephesians 2:1

[ Made Alive in Christ ] As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

Colossians 2:13

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinfulnature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

The question is more of:

Faith...a gift from God, or decision of man?
There is really no debate on the issue of election. According to the scriptures, faith is by election, as well as unbelief. Romans chapter 5 clearly establishes this truth among many other passages throughout the bible.

So it boils down to 2 possible realities. And this is the real debate ...

1. God chose not to reveal himself to the vast majority of humanity and created/predestined them to be tortured for ever or annihilated.

2. God chose not to reveal himself to the vast majority of humanity and will eventually redeem even those that do no believe in Christ in the fullness of times through his fiery judgments.


We do know that God himself says he does not take pleasure in the destruction of the wicked.

Eze 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

So the argument that God glories in the death of the wicked is scripturally invalid. Where you go from here is a long and winding road, full of difficulties in unearthing the truth because of two thousand years of tradition and the various translations of the original texts of the new testament.
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Old 10-11-2009, 05:09 PM
 
737 posts, read 1,444,117 times
Reputation: 433
Interesting subject I want state my views on this subject however I do know that one religion recently changed theirs but only a tad.

I agree it depends on whom you are talking to and their belief.
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Old 10-11-2009, 05:21 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,822 posts, read 9,810,005 times
Reputation: 1300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
So it boils down to 2 possible realities. And this is the real debate ...

1. God chose not to reveal himself to the vast majority of humanity and created/predestined them to be tortured for ever or annihilated.

2. God chose not to reveal himself to the vast majority of humanity and will eventually redeem even those that do no believe in Christ in the fullness of times through his fiery judgments.


We do know that God himself says he does not take pleasure in the destruction of the wicked.

Eze 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

So the argument that God glories in the death of the wicked is scripturally invalid. Where you go from here is a long and winding road, full of difficulties in unearthing the truth because of two thousand years of tradition and the various translations of the original texts of the new testament.
I don't know if you can argue that God hasn't revealed himself to the whole world. There has been two times when the entire world knew...Adam & Eve and Noah after the flood.

Romans 3:19
"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God."

The whole world is held accountable... young and old, the rich or poor, believer or non-believer...can not plead ignorance. Those who do not believe will be held accountable for their unbelief because they are under the law.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
Scripture doesn't teach predestination to hell. Human reasoning does that .
__________________________________________________ _______________________
But you are correct, God takes no pleasure in sending the unbeliever to hell.
The emphasis is "not taking pleasure", not that he doesn't send anyone to hell.
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Old 10-11-2009, 05:21 PM
 
14 posts, read 37,048 times
Reputation: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
That's going to up God.....

All we know is that: Now for the other side:
  • For the LORD your God is a merciful God Deuteronomy 4:31
  • From the womb your are my God Psalm 22:10
  • The message of Jesus is heard by John in the womb even through the mother's ears Luke 1:44
  • your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost. Matthew 18:14
  • "See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven." Matthew 18:10
Now about your "decision theology" that isn't scriptural.
  • You did not choose me, but I chose you John 15:16
  • Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you even at my mother'sbreast. Psalm 22:9
  • I took you from the ends of the earth, from its farthest corners I called you. I said, 'You are my servant'; I have chosen you and have not rejected you." Isaiah 41:9
  • "For many are invited, but few are chosen." Matthew 22:14
  • "but I have chosen you out of the world." John 15:19
Ephesians 2:8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God

Ephesians 2:1 [ Made Alive in Christ ] As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

The question is more of:

Faith...a gift from God, or decision of man?



I guess not everyone has to be save to get to heaven
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Old 10-11-2009, 05:23 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,486,807 times
Reputation: 241
I know of no Christian church that teaches that unbaptized babies end up in hells everlasting fire...
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Old 10-11-2009, 05:25 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,486,807 times
Reputation: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Starlady01 View Post
however I do know that one religion recently changed theirs but only a tad.

.
and that would be?...
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Old 10-11-2009, 05:41 PM
 
Location: USA
1,895 posts, read 4,039,360 times
Reputation: 1988
There is an age of accountability.

Of course, babies go to heaven.
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Old 10-11-2009, 06:33 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,384,960 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
"death came to all men, because all sinned" Doesn't "all mean all" ?

but "never doesn't mean never" .....convenient
Death still comes to all men.. when did that change? Jesus' sacrifice on the cross PAID FOR ALL SIN.. therefore the sinful little newborn baby has his/her sins paid for before he/she can commit them...

Yeah ... all sin and all sin is paid for by Christ....
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Old 10-11-2009, 06:34 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,197,872 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
I don't know if you can argue that God hasn't revealed himself to the whole world. There has been two times when the entire world knew...Adam & Eve and Noah after the flood.

Romans 3:19
"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God."

The whole world is held accountable... young and old, the rich or poor, believer or non-believer...can not plead ignorance. Those who do not believe will be held accountable for their unbelief because they are under the law.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
Scripture doesn't teach predestination to hell. Human reasoning does that .
__________________________________________________ _______________________
But you are correct, God takes no pleasure in sending the unbeliever to hell.
The emphasis is "not taking pleasure", not that he doesn't send anyone to hell.
Of course i dont believe in hell. I believe in the grave(hades/sheol) and tartaroo(prison of fallen angels) and in gehenna(valley of Hinnom, a place on earth) ... But hell is a pagan myth, the word is derived from the Nordic Hel, the daughter of loki the trickster God.

I believe Romans chapter 9 fully explains the process of election. It is not of our choice, but God who works in those that believe to make them will and do of Gods good pleasure. If God had not dragged you to christ you would be like every other unbeliever. You faith is not a product of your decision. Your decision is a roduct of the faith God gave you. So those who do not choose to believe have not been given faith. I understand why fundamentalists often try to cloud the issue of election, because if ET is true it really casts the Christian God in a bad light. To suppose he created most people for the purpose of destroying them or torturing them forever. At least calvanists are honest about the issue.
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Old 10-11-2009, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,384,960 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
I know of no Christian church that teaches that unbaptized babies end up in hells everlasting fire...
You'd be surprise how much junk is pushed as "Christian"...

But the compromise to the horrible thought of a new-born infant being condemned to hell is to say:
"The fate of a baby is in the hands of the family. If both parents choose to reject Christ then they are both condemning themselves and their infant child. Still think God is malicious? Let me close with Romans 9:11-26 and allow you to make the decision."

Does the Bible Say Babies go to Hell? | Progressive U (http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/49830-does-bible-say-babies-go-hell - broken link)

The fact is that you either have that ALL have sinned and ALL are saved or ALL have sinned and babies are sent to hell for not believing so that they are not saved and condemned to hell...

the poor babies...
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