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Old 10-13-2009, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,408,340 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
It's simple Katjonji because scripture says so, no more no less if scripture said different then I would say the opposite.
Scripture however does not say, they are innocent. Babies are just as wicked and sinful as we are but God's grace and mercy allows them as they are in heaven
Oh man! it is ironic that I agree with you that babies are covered by God's grace and mercy. Yet I believe that all sinners are also covered by God's grace and mercy. If children are not innocent and adults are not innocent.. how is it that you can say one will go to heaven but the other will burn in hell for eternity?

there is no scripture that says babies go to heaven and sinners go to hell.. you were once a sinner.. what changed?
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Old 10-13-2009, 01:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Oh man! it is ironic that I agree with you that babies are covered by God's grace and mercy. Yet I believe that all sinners are also covered by God's grace and mercy. If children are not innocent and adults are not innocent.. how is it that you can say one will go to heaven but the other will burn in hell for eternity?

there is no scripture that says babies go to heaven and sinners go to hell.. you were once a sinner.. what changed?
I agree once they repent, put their trust and become a new craetion, all things being past away but I wouldn't be dogmatic about this issue. If God doesn't allow babies then He does allow babies, I won't harp on it like universalist do if something doesn't jive with our fallen thinking or logic.

(2 Samuel 12:21-23)
21Then his servants said to him, "What is this thing that you have done? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept; but when the child died, you arose and ate food."
22He said, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, 'Who knows, the LORD may be gracious to me, that the child may live.'
23"But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

(Mark 9:36)
33They came to Capernaum; and when He was in the house, He began to question them, "What were you discussing on the way?"
34But they kept silent, for on the way they had discussed with one another which of them was the greatest.
35Sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, "If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all."
36Taking a child, He set him before them, and taking him in His arms, He said to them,
37"Whoever receives one child like this in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me does not receive Me, but Him who sent Me."
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Old 10-13-2009, 01:43 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,408,340 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I agree once they repent, put their trust and become a new craetion, all things being past away

(2 Samuel 12:21-23)
21Then his servants said to him, "What is this thing that you have done? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept; but when the child died, you arose and ate food."
22He said, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, 'Who knows, the LORD may be gracious to me, that the child may live.'
23"But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

(Mark 9:36)
33They came to Capernaum; and when He was in the house, He began to question them, "What were you discussing on the way?"
34But they kept silent, for on the way they had discussed with one another which of them was the greatest.
35Sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, "If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all."
36Taking a child, He set him before them, and taking him in His arms, He said to them,
37"Whoever receives one child like this in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me does not receive Me, but Him who sent Me."
OY VEY!

You do realize that everyone in David's time was said to go to the grave or hades so that in essence by his belief David would go to the same place (not salvation or heaven but hades/grave) but the child would never return to earth.. right?

If I receive a child in Jesus' name then I receive Jesus and therefore God which would mean I am saved... not the child.

I firmly believe that the child in their ignorance of the world is truly what believers should be.. all love and acceptance rather than hate and damnation but that verse doesn't say the child is saved but that the one who receives the child is saved.

So is the child Jesus? or is Jesus making a point that anyone who accepts the gospel as a child accepts it sees Jesus and therefore sees God...

Ask any child if the God they know will send people to burn in torture for eternity.. I have. And every child says NO! God is love and wouldn't do that. Children have a much clearer understanding of God's nature, that is very true.
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Old 10-13-2009, 01:46 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,468,646 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
OY VEY!

You do realize that everyone in David's time was said to go to the grave or hades so that in essence by his belief David would go to the same place (not salvation or heaven but hades/grave) but the child would never return to earth.. right?
LOL...No I have never understood that to mean grave...sorry. I will go next to him in the grave? NO! I don't think so. I will go to my father but he can't come to me. Hades can mean the after lfe too and the Jews believed in an afterlife.

but I wouldn't be dogmatic about this issue. If God doesn't allow babies then He doesn't allow babies-I trust God that He will get His glory and leave it at that. I won't harp on it-start drinkking, becoming suicidal like universalist do if something doesn't jive with our fallen thinking or logic.
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Old 10-13-2009, 01:48 PM
 
Location: south Missouri
438 posts, read 914,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I remember and I would like to thank the catholic church for putting God's word down on paper in latin....by the way did William Tyndale have his own take as well

Yes, Tyndale did. And in fact, large portions of Tyndale's work appear in the King James version which - contrary to what a lot of people think was not penned by King James but hired out.

Tyndale's fate was to be burned for heresy thanks to Thomas Wolsey although the actual death happened in Brussells.
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Old 10-13-2009, 01:54 PM
 
1,534 posts, read 1,596,890 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Some people believe in ghosts too...I don't.

No! Just one of several examples....
1 Samuel 28:7 Saul then said to his attendants, "Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her." "There is one in Endor," they said.
The NIV translates the Hebrew ob as medium and it never means evil spirit...it means a bottle (made from animal skin), a necromancer, or medium... never refers to the dead spirit that is contacted. It is translated as wineskin once too...

Saul thought the dead could talk through mediums or necromancers... there were no demons as in the kind in Frank Peretti's writings shown here.

Notice that in your quote is is the CONSULTANT of the familiar spirit not the familiar spirit. The word for familiar spirit here is yiddeoni which is a knower from the root or wizard... the fact is that the familiar spirit is not addressed by itself because they didn't exist. God knew that they professed to be able to talk to the dead but God also knew that the dead were not roaming the earth or able to communicate. That is why it was an abomination... because it was not even remotely possible to talk to the dead!

Proverbs 11:1 A false balance is an abomination to the LORD, But a just weight is His delight.

Because it deceives by being false it is an abomination just like those who are talking with the dead, that their sayings are not true knowledge but are false. There is no communication with the dead!

Well he doesn't seem to be much of an adversary if he is testing Job as GOD presented him to the accuser (sata)... I mean if Satan were real and God is talking with him for real as portrayed in Job (hopefully you've read the whole thing) then why does God bring Job to Satan's attention?

Job 1:6-7 One day the angels (sons of God) came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan (the accuser) also came with them. The Lord said to Satan (the accuser), “Where have you come from?”

First, why are the "angels" coming before the Lord and Satan is there? Did God summon him or the angels? and why does God ask "where have you come from?" Doesn't God know?

Translated as capital S..Satan and all of the sudden GOD EVEN BELIEVES IN SATAN? The whole premise is that satan is an accuser. It doesn't even imply that satan is a red guy who rules hell and has horns and a pitch fork... that is your imagination as are the fact that demons/evil spirits exist. Any true evil spirits (ra' ruach) came directly from God as in 1 Samuel 16:14.

But that still doesn't change the fact that ERers and Annihilists can't have it both ways. If all who do not believe go to hell, then babies also must because they don't believe.

It is funny that God saves the little children just because they are innocent (yet God says all have sinned) but adults (or whatever age you think they become accountable) are just doomed.

You can't have it both ways. Either you have to believe or you don't.
familiar spirit #178 'owb obe from the same as 1 (apparently through the idea of prattling a father's name); properly, a mumble, i.e. a water skin (from its hollow sound); hence a necromancer (ventriloquist, as from a jar):--bottle, familiar spirit.

It is used as familiar spirit(s) 16 times and bottles 1 time.

The word "familiar spirits" also comes from the ancient Akkadian word, "ubi" meaning "a charm" used of one who was mistress under the spell or spirit.

All I can say is if you don't think satan is real and alive and well and is our adversary then you are very, very foolish and in for the shock of your life when you discover the truth.
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Old 10-13-2009, 02:10 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,408,340 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
LOL...No I have never understood that to mean grave...sorry. I will go next to him in the grave? NO! I don't think so. I will go to my father but he can't come to me. Hades can mean the after lfe too and the Jews believed in an afterlife.

but I wouldn't be dogmatic about this issue. If God doesn't allow babies then He doesn't allow babies-I trust God that He will get His glory and leave it at that. I won't harp on it-start drinkking, becoming suicidal like universalist do if something doesn't jive with our fallen thinking or logic.
WHOA- now that is your true heart for the gospel in that you think if you believed all were saved then you would start drinking and become suicidal!

BTW- I think the same sentiment in what David said is like that described here: Job 7:9; "As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more."

The Jews (according to the many sites I visited) believe this:
The Jewish concept of the afterlife for the wicked is less developed. Known as Gehinnom (Gehenna in Yiddish) or Sheo'l, it has its foundations in the dark pit described in the Torah (see above) and an actual place where a pagan cult conducted rituals included burning children (see the description in II Kings 23:10 and Jeremiah 7:31).
Gehinnom is the postmortem destination of unrighteous Jews and Gentiles. In one reference, the souls in Gehinnom are punished for up to 12 months. After the appropriate period of purification, the righteous continue on to Gan Eden (Rabbi Akiba and Babylonian Talmud, tractate Eduyot 2:10). The wicked endure the full year of punishment then are either annihilated ("After 12 months, their body is consumed and their soul is burned and the wind scatters them under the soles of the feet of the righteous (Rosh Hashanah 17a)") or continue to be punished.
This belief is the basis for the Jewish practice of mourning and asking blessings on deceased loved ones for only 11 months (one would not wish to imply that the departed needed the full 12 months of purification).
Jewish Beliefs on the Afterlife - ReligionFacts

But because Judaism is about relationships in this life there is much speculation allowed for the afterlife... notice also that Judaism teaches that there is an end to the punishment of the wicked and that is called purification.

So either the wicked are annihilated or they are counted as righteous after purification but nonetheless the punishment has purpose and is temporary!

I can be dogmatic about the issue because God is. He says he sent his Son to save all who are lost.. and I trust that Jesus will not complete his mission until all the lost are found...

Babies are lost then found. Adults are lost then found.. it is the same thing for both parties.

You were once lost, right? or were you born found?
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Old 10-13-2009, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,408,340 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
familiar spirit #178 'owb obe from the same as 1 (apparently through the idea of prattling a father's name); properly, a mumble, i.e. a water skin (from its hollow sound); hence a necromancer (ventriloquist, as from a jar):--bottle, familiar spirit.

It is used as familiar spirit(s) 16 times and bottles 1 time.

The word "familiar spirits" also comes from the ancient Akkadian word, "ubi" meaning "a charm" used of one who was mistress under the spell or spirit.

All I can say is if you don't think satan is real and alive and well and is our adversary then you are very, very foolish and in for the shock of your life when you discover the truth.
You just confirmed that familiar spirit is a "hollow sound" meaning that there is no substance in it! That means it is a figment of imagination. The necromancers thought they were hearing the knowledge of the dead and were passing that on... do you think the dead speak too?

You have given me nothing that can convince me that satan or demons are real and alive! there is no scripture that contradicts that the adversary is anyone who opposes another.. that could be me opposing myself yet I am not called satan!

Since you seem to have a grasp on using the original languages you should study this:
  1. Origin of sin - James 1:13-15; Mark 7:20-23 cf. Jer. 17:9.
  2. The meaning of satan (adversary) - the following are referred to as "satan" or "adversary":
    1. God - 2 Sam. 24:1 cf. 1 Chron. 21:1.
    2. An obedient divine angel - Num. 22:22.
    3. Hadad the Edomite - 1 Kings 11:14.
    4. Peter - Matt. 16:23.
  3. The meaning of "devil" (accuser; calumniator) - the following are referred to as a "devil" or "slanderer":
    1. Judas - John 6:70.
    2. Women - 1 Timothy 3:11 cf. Titus 2:3.
    3. Men - 2 Timothy 3:3.
    4. "Sin in the flesh" - Heb. 2:14 cf. Heb. 9:26 and Rom. 5:21; 6:23 (to show that "devil" is synonymous with "sin") and then cf. Rom. 7:17, 18.
Demon possessions in the NT were counted as sicknesses.. yet we have really cool "casting out of demons" medicine that will cure those same sicknesses.....
Jesus casts out the demons in Legion and then he is said to be "of his right mind." Today we would prescribe anti-psychotic drugs and have the same result.

I have no fear of satan, the devil, or demons, evil spirits, or familiar spirits.... they exist in your imagination and books of fiction.

There is absolutely no "real live" demons/devils running a muck in the world. That is an ancient idea and I hope we have evolved beyond the Salem Witch Trials! Where poisoning of grain was considered to be "demon-possessed" yet we know that a simple medicine will cure the "demon-possessed."

but alas, this is way off topic....
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Old 10-13-2009, 02:46 PM
 
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(Luke 18:16)

16But Jesus called for them, saying, "Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Amen!
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Old 10-13-2009, 03:11 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
(Luke 18:16)

16But Jesus called for them, saying, "Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Amen!
Jesus said this to show that children are pure in heart and are teachable....something most adults lack and we are also to become like then if we want to enter in the Kingdom.
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