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Old 10-20-2009, 11:41 AM
 
218 posts, read 269,626 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Yes everyone will be saved, because God has willed to save all men. There is no eternal punishment, and there is no "hell" as the church has taught us. Yes, there is punishment, but it is not eternal. Yes there is a lake of fire, but it is not "hell".


But back on topic, you haven't really shown "age of accountability" to be a true scriptural doctrine. What you have shown is we need to come to God like a little child.

And I have already shown that doesn't mean children are pure and innocent. So that doesn't mean when we are converted we become as little children. That is not what those verses are saying. No.

We need to come to God with a wide-eyed acceptance - just believe He can do it, like a little child believes something. That is what those verses (Matt 18:3 etc) are saying.

There is no scripture that says children are innocent. Scripture tells us none are good, all are sinners. Therefore there can be no "age of accountability" doctrine. If you feel there is scripture to support it, please summarize it for me.
KJV Luke 18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

NASB reads. But Jesus called for them, saying, "Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.


Did you read that for such is the kingdom of God, little children don't go to eternal damnation straight from Jesus own words. Why would Jesus say let the children come to me for such is belongs the kingdom of heaven if they were sinners.
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Old 10-20-2009, 11:48 AM
 
159 posts, read 195,156 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightinsky View Post
KJV Luke 18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

NASB reads. But Jesus called for them, saying, "Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.


Did you read that for such is the kingdom of God, little children don't go to eternal damnation straight from Jesus own words. Why would Jesus say let the children come to me for such is belongs the kingdom of heaven if they were sinners.
Good point
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Old 10-20-2009, 11:52 AM
 
218 posts, read 269,626 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaltonG View Post
Good point
Thanks Dalton. You and I and many others are only trying to convey the truth not for ourselves but for the lost souls out there in search of it.
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Old 10-20-2009, 12:19 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,416,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaltonG View Post
Acts 3:19 says when we are converted are sins are blotted out. Matt 3:18 says when we are converted we are as little children. Either it is as you say, which contadicts Acts 3 and you have yet to prove your idea in Matt 18, or it is one in the same.

Sins blotted out = become as little children

Can you disprove that?
Yes... I believe I can. Perhaps you will not accept the proof but I can certainly prove that sins blotted out = become as little children is in error.

there is no Matt. 3:18 so I assume that you mean Matt. 18:3

Let's see it in context:

Jesus is teaching and the disciples ask who is the greatest in the kingdom. Jesus answers:
3 And he said: I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

The explanation is right there.

The least is the greatest and the greatest is the least...

You think it means that children are innocent but Jesus says it is their humility in acceptance of Jesus' words.

I don't see how Acts 3:19 has anything to do with the Matt 18 passage as the little children didn't repent or do anything but absorb Jesus' teaching.

Children have a natural willingness to learn..
The saying can't teach an old dog new tricks comes to mind before what you are proposing.
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Old 10-20-2009, 12:28 PM
 
218 posts, read 269,626 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yes... I believe I can. Perhaps you will not accept the proof but I can certainly prove that sins blotted out = become as little children is in error.

there is no Matt. 3:18 so I assume that you mean Matt. 18:3

Let's see it in context:

Jesus is teaching and the disciples ask who is the greatest in the kingdom. Jesus answers:
3 And he said: I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

The explanation is right there.

The least is the greatest and the greatest is the least...

You think it means that children are innocent but Jesus says it is their humility in acceptance of Jesus' words.

I don't see how Acts 3:19 has anything to do with the Matt 18 passage as the little children didn't repent or do anything but absorb Jesus' teaching.

Children have a natural willingness to learn..
The saying can't teach an old dog new tricks comes to mind before what you are proposing.
Caesar Milan from dog whisperer has on many occasions taught old dogs new tricks so that old sayin is another one of grandmas fairy tales.
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Old 10-20-2009, 12:46 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,424,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightinsky View Post
KJV Luke 18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

NASB reads. But Jesus called for them, saying, "Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.


Did you read that for such is the kingdom of God, little children don't go to eternal damnation straight from Jesus own words. Why would Jesus say let the children come to me for such is belongs the kingdom of heaven if they were sinners.

You are kidding yourself if you think children aren't sinners.
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Old 10-20-2009, 12:49 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,416,210 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightinsky View Post
Caesar Milan from dog whisperer has on many occasions taught old dogs new tricks so that old sayin is another one of grandmas fairy tales.
I agree...

However, that fairy tale correlates to the passage more accurately than deriving that there is an "age of accountability."

That was my point.. Not that dogs CAN'T learn when they are old but that it is more difficult to train them just as it is more difficult to train an adult than a child...

Jesus explains why children are the greatest... they are humble.

Psalm 25:9 He guides the humble in what is right and teaches them his way.

James 4:6 But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."

The scripture referred to in James is:

Proverbs 3:34 He mocks proud mockers but gives grace to the humble.
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Old 10-20-2009, 12:54 PM
 
218 posts, read 269,626 times
Reputation: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
You are kidding yourself if you think children aren't sinners.
Children do wrong and sin, but don't necessarily understand as an adult does. Babies on the other don't have a clue about sin, making decisions, today's weather forecast, dow jones, etc. I know I'm being silly with my choice of words but how much simpler can I say this. Babies don't understand as do adults and are certainly not accountable for sin and go to heaven if they died in that state.

Children on the other hand depending on how old they are which varries from child to child may or may not know they are doing wrong. Some do and some don't. We have to trust that a righteouss and just God would look at each case individually.

By the way your name says it all Legoman.... let go man you aint gonna win this debate.
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Old 10-20-2009, 01:04 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,424,185 times
Reputation: 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightinsky View Post
Children do wrong and sin, but don't necessarily understand as an adult does. Babies on the other don't have a clue about sin, making decisions, today's weather forecast, dow jones, etc. I know I'm being silly with my choice of words but how much simpler can I say this. Babies don't understand as do adults and are certainly not accountable for sin and go to heaven if they died in that state.
So if you don't realize its a sin, its not a sin? Sin is usually about intent of the heart. When a 6 month old baby slaps his brother and takes his toy, that is selfishness, that is a sin, plain and simple. There's no need to sugarcoat it and say babies don't sin.

Of course babies don't understand as adults do, but you are ignoring plain scripture that says we are all sinners and there are none good.

Romans 3:10 There is no one righteous, not even one


No one is righteous. That includes babies.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned


ALL have sinned. That includes babies.

Quote:

Children on the other hand depending on how old they are which varries from child to child may or may not know they are doing wrong. Some do and some don't. We have to trust that a righteouss and just God would look at each case individually.

By the way your name says it all Legoman.... let go man you aint gonna win this debate.
LOL. These debates are rarely won, only God can change someone, all I can do is study the scriptures and present my beliefs. Be well Lightinsky...
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Old 10-20-2009, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,416,210 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightinsky View Post
Children do wrong and sin, but don't necessarily understand as an adult does. Babies on the other don't have a clue about sin, making decisions, today's weather forecast, dow jones, etc. I know I'm being silly with my choice of words but how much simpler can I say this. Babies don't understand as do adults and are certainly not accountable for sin and go to heaven if they died in that state.

Children on the other hand depending on how old they are which varries from child to child may or may not know they are doing wrong. Some do and some don't. We have to trust that a righteouss and just God would look at each case individually.

By the way your name says it all Legoman.... let go man you aint gonna win this debate.
The funny thing is he has already won because he knows that children are saved and will never go to hell...



We are not arguing that the reality is that babies go to hell... because hell as you know it does not exist and because Jesus brought salvation to all men, including babies and wicked people.

It is you who separate babies, children, and adults in their sin. The bible states that ALL have sinned and ALL are saved!

Its a win/win argument for sure.
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