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Old 10-20-2009, 01:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaltonG View Post
No it is easy to know which it is discussing based on context. Plus, I use E-sword to see the word and know for myself which it is lol
Good, since you use E-sword you know you can easily see that "hell" is translated from 3 different words/concepts/meanings.

What "context" are you talking about though? The "context" that you just "know" that many people will be thrown into "hell" forever? How do you know that? I'm serious. Here is my challenge to you. Go through every "hell" verse and try to find one that says "hell" is forever. It shouldn't take you too long to do since there are only 54 references to it in the KJV.
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Old 10-20-2009, 01:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Then I suppose all these translators who have added this word "hell" into the bible are going to be getting some plagues from God.

The word "hell" or concept of "hell" is not in the hebrew/greek texts.

The word "hell" is always mistranslated from one of these words:

sheol - (hebrew) means unseen/state of the dead/the grave
hades - (greek) means unseen/state of the dead/the grave
gehenna - (greek) literally valley of hinnom - a place of judgment
tartarus - (greek) abyss

None of these carry the meaning of our modern day definition of "hell" as a place of eternal conscious punishment in fire.

Research it yourself.
You are only revealing one of them, for instance hades can mean grave or hell.

Rev 20:14 - "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death".

Your argument is futile cause no matter where they are or how it translates they are going to this lake of fire on judgment day.
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Old 10-20-2009, 01:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaltonG View Post
You are only revealing one of them, for instance hades can mean grave or hell.
Yes, sheol/hades adds more confusion because half the time (in the KJV) they translate it as grave. Check NIV or NASB and you will see they are at least a little more consistent with sheol being translated as grave.

Quote:
Rev 20:14 - "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death".

Your argument is futile cause no matter where they are or how it translates they are going to this lake of fire on judgment day.
AH HA! So you conceed "hell" is not forever as described by the bible then?

Actually it is HADES that is thrown into lake of fire in Rev 20:14. GEHENNA is not thrown into the lake of fire, neither is TARTARUS thrown into the lake of fire. That is to say: the "unseen/state of the dead/the grave" is thrown into the lake of fire, along with death itself. Death is destroyed, there is no more death. Therefore there is no more needed for the "state of the dead/the grave" either.


Now the lake of fire itself is another story. Some bibles do say the "smoke of the torment" from the lake of fire is "forever and ever", but others describe it as "ages of ages". This gets into the translation of the greek word "aion", which you might want to research.
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Old 10-20-2009, 01:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Yes, sheol/hades adds more confusion because half the time (in the KJV) they translate it as grave. Check NIV or NASB and you will see they are at least a little more consistent with sheol being translated as grave.


AH HA! So you conceed "hell" is not forever as described by the bible then?

Actually it is HADES that is thrown into lake of fire in Rev 20:14. GEHENNA is not thrown into the lake of fire, neither is TARTARUS thrown into the lake of fire. That is to say: the "unseen/state of the dead/the grave" is thrown into the lake of fire, along with death itself. Death is destroyed, there is no more death. Therefore there is no more needed for the "state of the dead/the grave" either.


Now the lake of fire itself is another story. Some bibles do say the "smoke of the torment" from the lake of fire is "forever and ever", but others describe it as "ages of ages". This gets into the translation of the greek word "aion", which you might want to research.
Hell is foreveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer and heaven is foreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer. You got 2 choices argue all night and day about won't change the facts.
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Old 10-20-2009, 01:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightinsky View Post
Hell is foreveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer and heaven is foreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer. You got 2 choices argue all night and day about won't change the facts.
Please show me a scripture that says hell is forever.

Thanks,
Legoman
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Old 10-20-2009, 01:54 PM
 
159 posts, read 194,820 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Yes, sheol/hades adds more confusion because half the time (in the KJV) they translate it as grave. Check NIV or NASB and you will see they are at least a little more consistent with sheol being translated as grave.


AH HA! So you conceed "hell" is not forever as described by the bible then?

Actually it is HADES that is thrown into lake of fire in Rev 20:14. GEHENNA is not thrown into the lake of fire, neither is TARTARUS thrown into the lake of fire. That is to say: the "unseen/state of the dead/the grave" is thrown into the lake of fire, along with death itself. Death is destroyed, there is no more death. Therefore there is no more needed for the "state of the dead/the grave" either.


Now the lake of fire itself is another story. Some bibles do say the "smoke of the torment" from the lake of fire is "forever and ever", but others describe it as "ages of ages". This gets into the translation of the greek word "aion", which you might want to research.
Matt 25:46 says everlasting punishment it is that simple. Again, if hell or lake of fire or whatever is not eternal, neither is heaven.
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Old 10-20-2009, 01:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaltonG View Post
Matt 25:46 says everlasting punishment it is that simple. Again, if hell or lake of fire or whatever is not eternal, neither is heaven.
But now you are assuming "hell" = "everlasting punishment".

What scripture says "hell" is everlasting punishment?

Remember we are talking about hell here, not "eternal" fire, not the "lake of fire", etc. These are all different things. Saying they are all the same just adds confusion.


But for reference, here is a how a literal translation renders that verse:

Matt 25:46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.


Its not "everlasting punishment". Its eonian chastening.
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Old 10-20-2009, 01:59 PM
 
159 posts, read 194,820 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Please show me a scripture that says hell is forever.

Thanks,
Legoman
"And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thess 1:9).

"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 7).

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" (Mat 25:46 ).

There are some for ya
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Old 10-20-2009, 02:02 PM
 
159 posts, read 194,820 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
But now you are assuming "hell" = "everlasting punishment".

What scripture says "hell" is everlasting punishment?

Remember we are talking about hell here, not "eternal" fire, not the "lake of fire", etc. These are all different things. Saying they are all the same just adds confusion.


But for reference, here is a how a literal translation renders that verse:

Matt 25:46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.


Its not "everlasting punishment". Its eonian chastening.
Everlasting means everlasting. The greek word is correctly translated. I realize it would be nice if it were not true, but it is.
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Old 10-20-2009, 02:03 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,408,216 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaltonG View Post
"And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thess 1:9).

"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 7).

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" (Mat 25:46 ).

There are some for ya
None of these verses have the word "hell" in them. Maybe you are not understanding my question. Show me a verse that says "hell" (the word hell) is eternal. Otherwise you are making equivocations (ie. between the word "hell" and other verses that allege "eternal" punishment) that are simply not there in scripture.
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