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Old 10-20-2009, 02:42 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,403,926 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaltonG View Post
I can not go on at this point because gehenna means more than what you are saying. Here it is not from me but from the greek:

geenna
gheh'-en-nah
Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.

It is not talking about a literal valley but figurative because it is a place of eternal fire

Dalton, if you think gehenna is eternal punishment, can you explain Matt 5:22 to me:

Matt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire [gehenna].


Why do I just get a slap on the wrist (at the council of the sanhedrin) if I insult (say Raca to) a brother, but if I call a brother a fool (which is also an insult), I am in danger of eternal punishment?

Does that verse make sense to you?
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Old 10-20-2009, 02:49 PM
 
159 posts, read 194,731 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Dalton, if you think gehenna is eternal punishment, can you explain Matt 5:22 to me:

Matt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire [gehenna].


Why do I just get a slap on the wrist (at the council of the sanhedrin) if I insult (say Raca to) a brother, but if I call a brother a fool (which is also an insult), I am in danger of eternal punishment?

Does that verse make sense to you?
Absolutely, he is making His point clear. They will be in danger of eternal fire just like anyone else. He is showing a contrast and severity of insulting someone as such. God is serious when He says do not do it. When you insult others you insult Him.
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Old 10-20-2009, 02:54 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,403,926 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaltonG View Post
Absolutely, he is making His point clear. They will be in danger of eternal fire just like anyone else. He is showing a contrast and severity of insulting someone as such. God is serious when He says do not do it. When you insult others you insult Him.
So let me get this straight. If I insult someone really severely, saying "Raca" to a brother, I have to go in front of the Sanhedrin council. I'm sure that wouldn't be fun, but at least it is not eternal.

BUT if I simply call someone a fool (which may or may not be as severe an insult as "Raca"), then I am in danger of eternal torment in fire?


It should be obvious the penalties don't seem to line up here.
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Old 10-20-2009, 02:57 PM
 
159 posts, read 194,731 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
So let me get this straight. If I insult someone really severely, saying "Raca" to a brother, I have to go in front of the Sanhedrin council. I'm sure that wouldn't be fun, but at least it is not eternal.

BUT if I simply call someone a fool (which may or may not be as severe an insult as "Raca"), then I am in danger of eternal torment in fire?


It should be obvious the penalties don't seem to line up here.
Jesus is making a point not literally if we say those exact words. The topic at hand is that gehenna is eternal fire and as I showed already, the Greek shows so. If you do not believe it that is your freedom, but one day we all we know for sure. The most important thing is we obey and die faithful (rev. 2:10) so we do not have to witness it personally.
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Old 10-20-2009, 03:15 PM
 
Location: kansas
55 posts, read 68,974 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whos'who View Post
Are new born babies who are not saved and who have not excepted Jesus as their lord and savior, comdemned to hell?
Your answer lay inside a question,
Is a baby old enough to be held accountable?
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Old 10-20-2009, 03:18 PM
 
218 posts, read 268,914 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newtoneer View Post
Your answer lay inside a question,
Is a baby old enough to be held accountable?
Short answer NO!!!

Babies don't make decisions let alone understand them.
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Old 10-20-2009, 05:20 PM
 
Location: kansas
55 posts, read 68,974 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightinsky View Post
Short answer NO!!!

Babies don't make decisions let alone understand them.


That is your answer if a baby is not accountable then the baby cannot be judged to "eternal death or eternal punishment or corrective punishment" which ever you wish to believe.
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Old 10-20-2009, 06:27 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,384,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
So let me get this straight. If I insult someone really severely, saying "Raca" to a brother, I have to go in front of the Sanhedrin council. I'm sure that wouldn't be fun, but at least it is not eternal.

BUT if I simply call someone a fool (which may or may not be as severe an insult as "Raca"), then I am in danger of eternal torment in fire?


It should be obvious the penalties don't seem to line up here.
Raca is a swear word that meant worthless or good-for-nothing... yet fool is to be a blockhead or dull/stupid so thank you for pointing out this verse as it does not make any sense the way it is translated.

Interesting...so if you have contempt for your brother (Raca) then you are doomed to court/sanhedrin. But if you are angry and say he is stupid then you go to hell.. gehenna...

How does that make any sense?

I guess I will have to look at it in context..no help there..

Does that mean that in 1 Cor. 15:36 that the writer is doomed to hell fire?

Maybe I should start another thread on the subject...very interesting.
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Old 10-20-2009, 06:36 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,822 posts, read 9,810,005 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaltonG View Post
But it is like you said, maybe. There is no evidence to show this. There is evidence for Jesus point being that they are sinless. Once again,
Acts 3:19 be converted and that your sins may be blotted out = Matt 18:3 be converted and become as little children.
Thus, be converted = be converted and sins blotted out = becoming as little children.
I said "maybe" not to suggest that babies are sinless. That would be denying that Jesus was speaking the truth.

"All have sinned", and we are to accept that "all means all"........... right?

All includes babies, sinful parents conceive sinful babies.
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Old 10-20-2009, 08:50 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,403,926 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Raca is a swear word that meant worthless or good-for-nothing... yet fool is to be a blockhead or dull/stupid so thank you for pointing out this verse as it does not make any sense the way it is translated.

Interesting...so if you have contempt for your brother (Raca) then you are doomed to court/sanhedrin. But if you are angry and say he is stupid then you go to hell.. gehenna...

How does that make any sense?

I guess I will have to look at it in context..no help there..

Does that mean that in 1 Cor. 15:36 that the writer is doomed to hell fire?

Maybe I should start another thread on the subject...very interesting.
Yes it is interesting and is yet another nail in the coffin for eternal torment. What Matt 5:22 is really talking about is judgment and consequences for actions.

The context of this passage is important. Jesus is talking to His disciples, believers - during the sermon on the mount. Jesus is talking about judgment and what one should do in certain situations:
[YLT]
Matt 5:21`Ye heard that it was said to the ancients: Thou shalt not kill, and whoever may kill shall be in danger of the judgment;
22but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.

So we can see the following:
- killing will lead to a judgment
- likewise with hating a brother (angry without cause)
- insulting a brother -> leads to judgement at the council of the sanhedrim
- calling a brother a fool (or "Rebel!") could lead to being thrown into the valley of hinnom

In those days criminals were thrown into gehenna (the valley) as their judgment. These were all judgments that would happen to them in their life (not in some fiery afterlife). Its speaking about consequences for actions.

Continuing on:
[NIV] 23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. 25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

So here we see Jesus is teaching us to be reconciled to our brother and fellow man. If we wish to murder or hate or insult our brother, we should stop what we are doing and go and be reconciled with him instead. Settle the matter with you adversary quickly.

This is all about settling disputes, and has absolutely nothing to do with a literal eternal torment in fire. This whole passage should be our first clue that "gehenna" is not "eternal hell".
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