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Old 10-20-2009, 10:59 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,386,559 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Yes it is interesting and is yet another nail in the coffin for eternal torment. What Matt 5:22 is really talking about is judgment and consequences for actions.

The context of this passage is important. Jesus is talking to His disciples, believers - during the sermon on the mount. Jesus is talking about judgment and what one should do in certain situations:
[YLT]
Matt 5:21`Ye heard that it was said to the ancients: Thou shalt not kill, and whoever may kill shall be in danger of the judgment;
22but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.

So we can see the following:
- killing will lead to a judgment
- likewise with hating a brother (angry without cause)
- insulting a brother -> leads to judgement at the council of the sanhedrim
- calling a brother a fool (or "Rebel!") could lead to being thrown into the valley of hinnom

In those days criminals were thrown into gehenna (the valley) as their judgment. These were all judgments that would happen to them in their life (not in some fiery afterlife). Its speaking about consequences for actions.

Continuing on:
[NIV] 23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. 25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

So here we see Jesus is teaching us to be reconciled to our brother and fellow man. If we wish to murder or hate or insult our brother, we should stop what we are doing and go and be reconciled with him instead. Settle the matter with you adversary quickly.

This is all about settling disputes, and has absolutely nothing to do with a literal eternal torment in fire. This whole passage should be our first clue that "gehenna" is not "eternal hell".
Thanks for the explanation.. I was at a loss there. I understood that it wasn't about the punishment but about being at odds with your brother but as far as the context.. it escaped me.

I still wonder why it was phrased in such a way, but it makes no sense if you look at it from an eternal fire damnation viewpoint.
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Old 01-20-2010, 01:45 PM
 
1 posts, read 1,094 times
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Default Babies & Accountability

Babies are exempt from hell because they are not conscience of sin. They are born sinners because they have a human father and the sin element is carried by the father. Children at the age (each being different) of accountability are considered as a sinner by God.
First, God does not send people to hell because they smote their brother or sister. Or because they did something that God does not like while here on earth.
God sends people to hell because they rejected the free gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The fact that they felt the calling of Jesus to serve Him and did not because they were too busy indicates to me that they never accepted Jesus Christ as Saviour.
Ephesians 2:8 For by GRACE (unmerited favor) are we saved through FAITH. It is a GIFT of God, not of ourselves, lest any man boast

We cannot earn redemption, Jesus paid the price for our forgiveness of sin by shedding His blood on the cross. It says in Hebrews that without the shedding of blood, there can be no forgiveness of sin. Our actions before or after salvation has no bearing on our salvation. Jesus did it all. We are only to accept His substitutionary death, burial, and resurrection to be saved.
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Old 01-21-2010, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Lubbock, Texas
331 posts, read 434,773 times
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Exactly. They are saved for the very reason that the unborn are saved: Jesus paid for all-you-can-save on that cross. Not just those who have professed their love and faith in Jesus Christ, but for those who haven't, and for those who can't (for whatever reason).
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Old 03-24-2010, 11:24 PM
 
Location: Fitzgerald . Ga.
4 posts, read 2,598 times
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1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Yes my friend you have done your research . Now the fun part of all of this is getting the Indoctrinites to see that , we all will bow and confess that christ is lord. ALL OF US. I can also give you a list of this being said in the BIBLE..
1) 1Tim 2:4 God will have all to be saved. (KJV) Can His will be thwarted?
2) 1Tim 2:4 God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth Will His desire come to pass?
3) 1Tim 2:6 Salvation of all is testified in due time Are we judging God before due time?
4) Jn 12:47 Jesus came to save all Will He succeed?
5) Eph 1:11 God works all after the counsel of His will Can your will overcome His?
6) Jn 4:42 Jesus is Savior of the world Can He be Savior of all without saving all?
7) 1Jn 4:14 Jesus is Savior of the world Why donít we believe it?
8) Jn 12:32 Jesus will draw all mankind unto Himself To roast or to love?
9) Col 1:16 By Him all were created Will He lose a part of His creation?
10) Rm 5:15-21 In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live The same all?
11) 1Cor 15:22 In Adam all die, in Christ all live Again, the same all?
12) Eph 1:10 All come into Him at the fulness of times Are you getting tired of seeing the word, all?
13) Phl 2:9-11 Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord Will the Holy Spirit be given to everyone?
14) 1 Cor 12:3 Cannot confess except by Holy Spirit See what I mean?
15) Rm 11:26 All Israel will be saved But most Jews donít believe yet!
16) Acts 3:20,21 Restitution of all How plain can you get?
17) Luke 2:10 Jesus will be joy to all people Is there joy is "hell"?
18) Heb 8:11,12 All will know God How long, O Lord?
19) Eph 2:7 His grace shown in the ages to come Have we judged Him before the time?
20) Titus 2:11 Grace has appeared to all Experientially or prophetically?
21) Rm 8:19-21 Creation set at liberty How much of creation?
22) Col 1:20 All reconciled unto God Thereís that word "all" again.
23) 1Cor 4:5 All will have praise of God What for?
24) Jms 5:11 End of the Lord is full of mercy Is "hell" mercy?
25) Rev 15:4 All nations worship when Godís judgments are seen Could His judgment be mercy?
26) Rm 11:32 All subject to unbelief, mercy on all All?
27) Rm 11:36 All out of, through, and into Him All into Him?
28) Eph 4:10 Jesus will fill all things Including "hell?"
29) Rev 5:13 All creation seen praising God Including Satan?
30) 1Cor 15:28 God will be all in all What does that mean?
31) Rev 21:4,5 No more tears, all things made new "All" made new?
32) Jn 5:25 All dead who hear will live How many will hear?
33) Jn 5:28 All in the grave will hear & come forth How will the "righteous" judge?
34) 1 Cor 3:15 All saved, so as by fire How can fire save you?
35) Mk 9:49 Everyone shall be salted with fire Including you?
36) Rm 11:15 Reconciliation of the world Will fire save the world instead of destroy it?
37) 2Cor 5:15 Jesus died for all Did He die in vain?
38) Jn 8:29 Jesus always does what pleases His Father What pleases the Father? (1Tim 2:4)
39) Heb 1:2 Jesus is Heir of all things Does "things" include people?
40) Jn 17:2 Jesus gives eternal life to all that His Father gave Him How many did the Father give Him?
41) Jn 3:35 The Father gave Him all things (Repeated for emphasis) Study the word "things" in the Greek.
42) 1 Tim 4:9-11 Jesus is Savior of all! Jesus is Savior of all! Canít seem to get away from that word "all."
43) Heb. 7:25 Jesus is able to save to the uttermost How far is "uttermost?"
44) 1Cor 15:26 Last enemy, death, will be destroyed Including "lake of fire" which is "second death?"
45) Is 46:10 God will do all His pleasure Does Old Testament agree with the New?
46) Gen 12:3 All families of the earth will be blessed Here comes that word "all" again.
47) Dan 4:35 Godís will done in heaven and earth What can defeat His will?
48) Ps 66:3,4 Enemies will submit to God Can any stay rebellious in "hell?"
49) Ps 90:3 God turns man to destruction, then says return How can one return from "destruction?"
50) Is 25:7 Will destroy veil spread over all nations All nations?
51) Deut 32:39 He kills and makes alive Kills to bring life?
52) Ps 33:15 God fashions all hearts "All" hearts, including men like "Hitler?"
53) Prv 16:9 Man devises, God directs his steps What about "free will?"
54) Prv 19:21 Man devises, but Godís counsel stands So much for "free will."
55) La 3:31,32 God will not cast off forever Why does He cast off in the first place? (1 Cor 11)
56) Is 2:2 All nations shall flow to the Lordís house "All" nations?
57) Ps 86:9 All nations will worship Him "All" nations!
58) Is 45:23 All descendants of Israel justified Including the wicked ones?
59) Ps 138:4 All kings will praise God Are you catching on?
60) Ps 65:2-4 All flesh will come to God That sounds wondrous.
61) Ps 72:18 God only does wondrous things I wish we would believe that.
62) Is 19:14,15 Egypt & Assyria will be restored Really?
63) Ezk 16:55 Sodom will be restored to former estate Sounds impossible.
64) Jer 32:17 Nothing is too difficult for Him Nothing? No, nothing!
65) Ps 22:27 All ends of the earth will turn to Him For what purpose?
66) Ps 22:27 All families will worship before Him Praise His name!
67) Ps 145:9 He is good to all Including your worst enemies.
68) Ps 145:9 His mercies are over all his works Letís start believing that.
69) Ps 145:14 He raises all who fall Who hasnít fallen in sin?
70) Ps 145:10 All His works will praise Him For "eternal torment?"
71) Is 25:6 Lord makes a feast for all people And you are invited.
72) Jer 32:35 Never entered His mind to eternally torture his children with fire Came from manís mind.
73) Jn 6:44 No one can come to Him unless He draws them You canít "chose" to follow Him.
74) Jn 12:32 I will draw all mankind unto Myself Amen!!!
Now read all these passages , and see what i am saying.. There need not be Hell for anyone. For He saves ALL. Life is a process of learning to be what God intended us to be. This Process of Learning can continue when we are awakened from Death , and we are punished for our sins as we learn. Punishment / Chastisement will happen , just not in the eternal way everyone has been indoctrined to think. Before Jesus can return all to the father , for him to be ALL in ALL everything must return. In order for that to happen all must be perfected in Grace and Love. Hell as we know it nowdays is a pagan belief the King James ( as well as others ) used to draw the pagan into the church. It was for control. Mind you that King James being a PAGAN King also reinforced this false doctrine , simply because it brought his kingdom to him. He was not the first to have this added to our texts. People that do the research will see , God is wrathful , yes , but is he rathful enough to send you to eternity ? No. Jesus taught on the prodigal son , who left the father and then came back and was welcomed with open arms.Luke 15:11-32 . Mind you he was treated well even though he made bad decisions. I believe in punishment for sins. I however do not believe there is a sin that can't be forgiven. Before or after death , you will become what God intended for you to become. Every single solitary one of us. His word will not return VOID. If It does return void , then God himself would be a liar. So it can only be THIS way. He cannot be all in all , or reign forever if one soul is not reconciled , and he loses that soul. The shepard Left the entire flock to find one lost lamb, and would it be right for a simple shepard to do what or God is not willing to ? Hardly. There are going to be a lot of surprises when you wake up come out of your graves , and realize the truth. There are going to be a lot of " How did this happen" and "why didn't we know this" going on. I can simply tell you this. The indoctrination of ou r minds has put eyes of sleep upon most christians , we do not seek , we shall not find. We do not knock , so the door shall not be opened. We do not look past our explainations to see the full picture of God's Words , and above all we wouldn't believe it if our eyes were opened. The temple of God lies within you , not a building deemed " Church" by man.
We are all pastors for God , once we believe that we are saved. Were we not told to go out and spread the word of the love of God to everyone ? Yet all I hear about from Christians is Hell and Death . When in all actuality it is not there in the original manuscripts ? We must not allow the blinders of Indoctrination to lead us down a path such as that. Everything returns to GOD. How can you miss that ? This means all shall return to his maker , in purity and grace. For eternity. If your pastor tells you , you are going to hell , explain to him this little verse. EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, EVERY TONGUE CONFESS, THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD. The wicked will be reconciled or that cannot be so. PERIOD. Confessing Christ as Savior / Lord of your life is how you get saved. It happens right there in black and white. I believe when we wake from the grave , we will see that the correct version of the events has happened just like It is said in our bible. Take off the blinders Christians , and realize that we are being fed false doctrine. God's mercy and grace will be shown then. We will all glorify God , for that was why we were created. To give God praise , and glorify him . To bless him. How can we miss our sole purpose ? Think for yourselves, pray that you will be opened up to the real reason we are here , and see what the man made religious doctrine really is , and then pull yourself out of it , so that you may see God's truth , and grace. His mercy , and his love for his children. ( his children aren't we all ) Prayers and Blessings for all of you . May God open your eyes , and instill his love , so that you may see , and believe him. In the Precious name of Jesus I pray . AMEN .
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Old 03-24-2010, 11:29 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 2,685,903 times
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I do not believe they go to hell because God is a merciful God and is just. People go to hell because they reject God, but a baby obviously cannot comprehend the decision to accept or reject the Lord.
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Old 03-24-2010, 11:39 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,720,996 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
I do not believe they go to hell because God is a merciful God and is just. People go to hell because they reject God, but a baby obviously cannot comprehend the decision to accept or reject the Lord.
I definitely agree that babies don't go to hell since I don't believe in a literal lake of fire anyway. However, you won't find any scripture to back up your belief. This well-accepted rule in most denominations was created because people believe God is merciful enough to give babies a pass. However, some don't think he's merciful to those who were ignorant of the gospel, didn't understand it, believed what they were taught as a child, deceived, etc. For those who believe this rule, it's very difficult to figure out where the "age of accountability" begins since there's no scripture to even confirm it.
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Old 03-24-2010, 11:58 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 2,685,903 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
I definitely agree that babies don't go to hell since I don't believe in a literal lake of fire anyway. However, you won't find any scripture to back up your belief. This well-accepted rule in most denominations was created because people believe God is merciful enough to give babies a pass. However, some don't think he's merciful to those who were ignorant of the gospel, didn't understand it, believed what they were taught as a child, deceived, etc. For those who believe this rule, it's very difficult to figure out where the "age of accountability" begins since there's no scripture to even confirm it.
You are absolutely correct which is why I said I believe. I didn't say for sure this is fact. I personally believe that once a child can comprehend what is wrong/right and that they are sinning, they are accountable. A mentally retarded person does not understand like babies; therefore, they will be in heaven. This is just my belief.
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Old 03-25-2010, 12:58 AM
 
3,576 posts, read 453,175 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
You are absolutely correct which is why I said I believe. I didn't say for sure this is fact. I personally believe that once a child can comprehend what is wrong/right and that they are sinning, they are accountable. A mentally retarded person does not understand like babies; therefore, they will be in heaven. This is just my belief.
What I see is you believing in loopholes for those that you think deserving of a pardon without believing in Christ, while also saying that it is ONLY belief in Christ which saves someone and they will go to heaven --- so what about all those that never even heard of Jesus, do they get a pardon as well, because obviously they could not believe?
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Old 03-25-2010, 01:04 AM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 2,685,903 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
What I see is you believing in loopholes for those that you think deserving of a pardon without believing in Christ, while also saying that it is ONLY belief in Christ which saves someone and they will go to heaven --- so what about all those that never even heard of Jesus, do they get a pardon as well, because obviously they could not believe?
Yes
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Old 03-25-2010, 04:41 AM
 
Location: alabama
200 posts, read 258,657 times
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No
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