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Old 04-17-2016, 03:04 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,851 posts, read 21,942,005 times
Reputation: 10596

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Yes, all are under sin, but then again, I have already explained why I think babies have not yet been affected by it.

The sin nature will eventually cause everyone to sin, and wages of sins are death, but if you do not commit sins, you are innocent of them.

That is my view and I stick to it. Feel free to be adamant of your view being correct, but don't be surprised if one day you realize you were wrong.

You keep quoting verses like Romans 3:12 (all have turned away), but you do not realize that could not possible refer to people who are incapable of turning away. Such verses actually support by view more than yours.
Finn, I bet you think you and I could never see eye to eye on any truly significant doctrine, but I am 100% on the same page as you on this issue.
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Old 04-17-2016, 03:28 PM
 
20,039 posts, read 9,714,061 times
Reputation: 1655
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
But it is clear. You just refuse to accept it.
"Flesh gives birth to flesh" ~ Jesus
Keep looking for those signs, and the only one you will see is Ahab's white whale.
Literature uses objects or symbols to represent or suggest important concepts.

Spirit gives birth to Spirit, you just don't believe it while in the fleshly mindset.
However, we will be carried to a higher-place, even while we yet live.
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Old 04-17-2016, 03:41 PM
 
39,606 posts, read 26,529,477 times
Reputation: 6017
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Munchkin View Post
Amen, once again !
Nicodemus is one of the excellent scripture to reveal that any of us not born again can not inherit the kingdom of God, whether baby, toddler, teenager, young adult, or an adult, period !

When we are born it is, "Flesh gives birth to flesh," we are not born in the Spirit but the flesh !! And until we can acknowledge that we are born in the flesh (sin) which can not inherit the kingdom of God, that old man, our sin nature is in this dilemma and the consequences of it is we all will inherit eternal damnation !
God's truth (His word) is what stands forever . It will never change regardless of what a human soul' emotions, will, tells them ! It seems ppl are putting God at the level of mankind's ways and thoughts and that is a very dangerous way of thinking, actually it is a form of unbelief, walking in opposition to the known will of God !

Ppl need to understand how important it is that we deny our flesh (self, emotions) and realize that especially that God's ways, thoughts are not man's way's, thoughts and He says that with no exceptions ! It is by faith we have to acknowledge this and trust the Lord that He knows what He is doing in all His ways no matter what, regardless how awful it sounds about a baby going to hell and what our emotions try to convince and make us believe .
Yes, it is difficult too understand and accept it, yet, if ppl don't turn and listen to what is being said about the will of God and respecting, reverencing our Heavenly Father God and His ways over our "self" (the flesh) by denying "self" just as Christ has told us to walk, it will not go well for any of us !

Look at all the ppl who have gone before us like Abraham, Joshua, Job, David, many of them that walked by faith in obedience to God and didn't know what or where they would go or end up, what would happen to their lives, but they trusted God with all their hearts . Yet, today because of them revealed in the scripture we too can trust God even with this subject that He is in control of all things. This is why I believe we have the OT as it teaches, encourages us to trust God when things like this not having a complete answer is hidden from us !

Could this Thread possibly be a test for all of us in that will we trust God no matter what as the scripture tells us over and over again, "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight." (Prov.3:5-6)

Like I said before I was struggling with this subject also . When a thread came up about it I stayed out of it until this time and I'm glad I paid attention to the Spirit of the Lord, as God's Spirit has given me an understanding that I thought I never could or would understand and He has made my path straight.

Blessing's to All !
This is so tragic and depressing! I am flabbergasted that anyone with such love and devotion for God could ever believe such barbaric things about God. The power of indoctrination in ancient ignorance is strong indeed.
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Old 04-17-2016, 04:11 PM
 
20,039 posts, read 9,714,061 times
Reputation: 1655

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHa3D-musUw
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Old 04-17-2016, 04:31 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 10,126,400 times
Reputation: 1305
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Yes, all are under sin, but then again, I have already explained why I think babies have not yet been affected by it.

The sin nature will eventually cause everyone to sin, and wages of sins is death, but if you do not commit sins, you are innocent of them.

That is my view and I stick to it. Feel free to be adamant of your view being correct, but don't be surprised if one day you realize you were wrong.

You keep quoting verses like Romans 3:12 (all have turned away), but you do not realize that could not possibly refer to people who are incapable of turning away. Such verses actually support by view more than yours.

How does a one day old baby turn away from God? Turning away requires a decision, and our sin nature will cause us to make that decision, but not until we are able to do it.

And you offer this one: "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit."

Is that true about babies who can't even speak?

And you offer this about babies: "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."

Really?

"and the way of peace they do not know"

Thats right. Such thing is requires only from those who understand what peace is.

"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Again, this can only refer to people who understand the issue.

It is clear the verses can only apply to people who are capable of doing the things they talk about.
God says they can to both aspects despite the wanton "stick to it decision theology heresy" refusal.
Psalm 22:9
Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you, even at my motherís breast.

Psalm 22:10
From birth I was cast on you; from my motherís womb you have been my God.

Psalm 51:6
Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb; you taught me wisdom in that secret place.
and it applies for the wicked:
Psalm 58:3
"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." (KJV)

The only one surprised will be those who call these and other such passages as God being a liar in preference to their own.

Last edited by twin.spin; 04-17-2016 at 04:40 PM..
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Old 04-17-2016, 04:39 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,129 posts, read 7,575,914 times
Reputation: 1702
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Good post testifying to the the truth.
As Finn once stated, maybe because the truth is offensive.
"Flesh gives birth to flesh" ~ Jesus
Romans 3:9-19 in which:
  1. Romans 3:4 quotes Psalm 51:4
  2. Romans 3:12 quotes Psalms 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Eccles. 7:20
  3. Romans 3:13 quotes Psalm 5:9
  4. Romans 3:13 quotes Psalm 140:3
  5. Romans 3:14 quotes Psalm 10:7
  6. Romans 3:17 quotes Isaiah 59:7,8
  7. Romans 3:18 quotes Psalm 36:1 "
Good of you to strain all the gnats out for your fan club.
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Old 04-17-2016, 04:40 PM
 
Location: Florida
62,392 posts, read 34,021,466 times
Reputation: 10360
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
God says they can to both aspects despite your wanton "stick to it" refusal.
You have been shown why your verses simply cannot apply to anyone but adults, but you insist they apply to babies too.

You preach what you preach, but so far I have not seen any Biblical proof to persuade me to change by view. As a matter of fact, you have done the opposite.

You insist babies mouths are full of cursing and bitterness, but everyone knows it is a physical impossibility, and hence cannot be true.

To be honest, I am surprised you don't see it.

Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 04-17-2016 at 04:52 PM..
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Old 04-17-2016, 04:46 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 10,126,400 times
Reputation: 1305
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Good of you to strain all the gnats out for your fan club.
oh, well coming from you is like the reed in swaying in it's own wind.
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Old 04-17-2016, 04:47 PM
 
20,039 posts, read 9,714,061 times
Reputation: 1655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
You have been shown why your verses simply cannot apply to anyone but adults, but you insist they apply to babies too.

You preach what you preach, but so far I have not seen any Biblical proof to persuade me to change by view. As a matter of fact, you have done the opposite.
It's a mindset predicated on abuse.
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Old 04-17-2016, 04:49 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,129 posts, read 7,575,914 times
Reputation: 1702
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
oh, well coming from you is like the reed in swaying in it's own wind.
THIS from the man who does not believe his own Bible on the nature of the guide promised by Jesus.
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