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Old 04-17-2016, 07:47 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
That's up to God. We don't get saved by a prayer. We get saved by Jesus.
"up to God"? You don't have a rapport with God/Jesus?
If you don't ever communicate with an egotistical/needy firefighter does that firefighter still save a person/baby/fetus who "rejects" him?
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Old 04-17-2016, 07:51 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
Are you able to actually answer twin's points? Or are you just going to insult him instead? That's what's telling.
Answer the points? They weren't questions, they seemed more like conveniently vague facts. He was merely highlighting the clinging to such a focus, I didn't see an insult anywhere there. He probably agrees that such "points" are undeniable, but other negative things are also undeniable.
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Old 04-17-2016, 07:54 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
The Bible says the wages of sin is death, but a baby, or an aborted baby, would be innocent of sins. How can a baby sin, or reject Christ? As we become older our sin nature ensures all will sin.
The idea is that the Old Testament (or common/current Jewish canon) is pretty clear that the Ultimate Creator God and Lord of Armies ("Hosts") and Master of Jealousy holds a grudge to the 9th and 10th generation, or something extremely close along those lines.

He punishes the baby for the sins of the Father... and who knows, maybe even the grandfather for the sins of the grandchild.
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Old 04-17-2016, 07:56 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
It is astonishing what people will say of hell especially when they really don't know what it is. I find it astonishing that fundies might say that babies, Atheists, Muslims, Hindus are all going to hell.


I don't see a hell like that at all, the fire is symbolic just as the worm that never dies is symbolic. It doesn't mean you go to hell, it means that you don't get in the first resurrection and you will be alive but not with a transformed body. The worm that never dies is a seed that needs the rain to fall so that it may die and bear fruit. If the rain of Sukkot doesn't fall on your sukkot seed, then the worm in that seed will never die.


The hell spoken of is about people who don't get transformed, they weep and gnash their teeth from the outer court of darkness which means they are in the kingdom but they are the least in the kingdom. Christians, Muslims, even Atheist in my opinion, they all go to the same place while other go to a higher Zoe kingdom of heaven that the majority will never step foot in.
Oh, what an interesting personal (and perhaps group) perspective.
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Old 04-17-2016, 07:59 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,493 posts, read 31,880,770 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
The idea is that the Old Testament (or common/current Jewish canon) is pretty clear that the Ultimate Creator God and Lord of Armies ("Hosts") and Master of Jealousy holds a grudge to the 9th and 10th generation, or something extremely close along those lines.

He punishes the baby for the sins of the Father... and who knows, maybe even the grandfather for the sins of the grandchild.
Is this the verse which is "extremely close" to your claim?

"The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child."
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Old 04-17-2016, 08:02 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
No, they do not flat out say what you think they say.

You have offered a lot of verses which you claim support your view, and I have shown they do not support it.

Read your psalm again, and ask with an honest heart if this is to be taken literally meaning "as soon as they are born" aka a new born baby. Everyone knows that there has never been a baby who has said anything as soon as they are born. They are not capably of speaking. They have to learn it. Why do you find it so hard to admit this? This is silly.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born,speaking lies.
It seems that the writer was merely positively comparing the simple-minded bliss of the womb to faith in his God. It is a very powerful psychological metaphor, but I guess to pick-and-choose literalists, at the points they agree with, Jews weren't allowed to use metaphor and parable (although Jesus used both all the time).

Regardless, bibliolaters are a dying and lying shame unto themselves, they make themselves into the central objects of their worship, not realizing they were crafted by the hands of fallible men, they themselves become but shadows of themselves and reflect the fallible works of fallible men. They have words, but cannot think. They have spines, but cannot act. They have titles, but they are vague. They hold commands, but cannot so often follow them themselves. Etc. Etc.

Last edited by LuminousTruth; 04-17-2016 at 08:12 PM..
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Old 04-17-2016, 08:03 PM
 
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John Calvin believed that there were babies in the eternal fires of hell. Perhaps even unborn babies. Because everyone is predestined, then it is possible, which was his reasoning. He called it an "awful decree" of God. He didn't like it, but that is how he interpreted the Bible.
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Old 04-17-2016, 08:08 PM
 
37,504 posts, read 25,238,629 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
John Calvin believed that there were babies in the eternal fires of hell. Perhaps even unborn babies. Because everyone is predestined, then it is possible, which was his reasoning. He called it an "awful decree" of God. He didn't like it, but that is how he interpreted the Bible.
Unsettling isn't it??? How such evil absurdity has survived into the 21st century is beyond me.
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Old 04-17-2016, 08:11 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Unsettling isn't it??? How such evil absurdity has survived into the 21st century is beyond me.
He believed that baby-torture in hell was a fitting and ultimately just (although mysterious) way to punish Adam and Eve for having been created fallible by Him, and failing.
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Old 04-17-2016, 08:15 PM
 
8,552 posts, read 11,879,563 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
He believed that baby-torture in hell was a fitting and ultimately just (although mysterious) way to punish Adam and Eve for having been created fallible by Him, and failing.
John Calvin was a madman. And his beliefs are right in line with many traditional Christians.
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