U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 04-17-2016, 08:21 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,956 posts, read 4,719,796 times
Reputation: 1328

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Is this the verse which is "extremely close" to your claim?

"The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child."
Oh, you mean Ezekiel 18:20 the story of the Great Flip-Flopping God? or perhaps Ezekiel 18:4 or maybe Jeremiah 31:30.

No, it's the Older Old Testament ones that contradict those Newer Old Testament ones.

Are we punished for the sins of others?

Quote:
I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. Exodus 20:5 , Deuteronomy 5:9

Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children unto the third and to the fourth generation. Exodus 34:7

Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. Numbers 14:18

A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD. Deuteronomy 23:2

If thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day ... Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body. Deuteronomy 28:15-18

Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. ... And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick. ... on the seventh day, that the child died. 2 Samuel 12:14-18

...etc etc
Then there is the New Testament one that contradicts that Old Testament one:

Quote:
Justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath. ... We were reconciled to God by the death of his Son. ... By the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation ... By one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Romans 5:9-19
Oops, looks like Paul forgot about Ezekiel and Jeremiah "overturning" the Torah.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-17-2016, 08:29 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
2,202 posts, read 1,419,918 times
Reputation: 1363
Babies cannot repent and acknowledge sin. Yes we are born with a sinful nature recognized at an age
that appears to vary yet within generally 6-8 years . Jesus refers to infants as innocent which speaks
volumes. If you don't like innocent then go back to your perverted church dogma. Additionally, fetuses
( Jesus claims to know in the womb) has a place for them as well. So christian theologians wannabees need to chill! Seriously reexamine your messenger pastor philosophers.

Last edited by openmike; 04-17-2016 at 08:39 PM.. Reason: Formatting
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-17-2016, 08:45 PM
 
5,124 posts, read 2,517,405 times
Reputation: 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Is this the verse which is "extremely close" to your claim?
"The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child."
Remember ' child ' in Scripture can refer to an adult child.
The old Hebrew Scriptures were talking about an offspring could Not be held responsible for a crime the parent committed.

What happened to the children ( minor and adult ) in the Flood of Noah's Day.
What happened to them when Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed.
What will happen to the children at the soon coming ' time of separation ' on Earth - Matthew 25:31-33,37
Minor children of a 'God-fearing parent ' will be saved - 1st Cor. 7:14
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-17-2016, 08:53 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,148,409 times
Reputation: 1306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
No, they do not flat out say what you think they say.

You have offered a lot of verses which you claim support your view, and I have shown they do not support it.

Read your psalm again, and ask with an honest heart if this is to be taken literally meaning "as soon as they are born" aka a new born baby. Everyone knows that there has never been a baby who has said anything as soon as they are born. They are not capably of speaking. They have to learn it. Why do you find it so hard to admit this? This is silly.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born,speaking lies.
It is not I who needs to read them again. What you've shown is that decision theology despises the Holy Bible and is as Acts 20:30 declares such messages for what it is.

God the Holy Spirit says Psalm 58:3 is the truth ... yet you do not.

God the Holy Spirit says Romans Psalm 53:3 is the truth .... yet you do not.

God the Holy Spirit says Romans 3:9-19 is the truth .... yet you do not.

God the Holy Spirit says Romans 6:23 is the truth .... yet you do not.

God the Holy Spirit says John 3:6 is the truth .... yet you do not.

God the Holy Spirit says Isaiah 6:46 is the truth .... yet you do not.

God the Holy Spirit says Psalm 51:6 is the truth .... yet you do not.

God the Holy Spirit says Psalm 22:10 is the truth .... yet you do not.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-17-2016, 08:58 PM
 
2,532 posts, read 2,012,150 times
Reputation: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
The idea is that the Old Testament (or common/current Jewish canon) is pretty clear that the Ultimate Creator God and Lord of Armies ("Hosts") and Master of Jealousy holds a grudge to the 9th and 10th generation, or something extremely close along those lines.

He punishes the baby for the sins of the Father... and who knows, maybe even the grandfather for the sins of the grandchild.
No, that is not true. The commandment only says that God visits the sinfulness unto the third and forth generation. It does not say punishment for the sins of the previous generations. In other words, we all inherit the sinful tendency of previous generations but each is accountable to when they themselves sin as I noted in a previous post which follows.


EZEK 18:2 "What mean you, that you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
EZEK 18:3 As I live, says the Lord GOD, you shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel."

EZEK 18:20 "The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."


You should do a little more study before you make false statements. Here is what the commandant says. It says nothing about punishing the children for what the fathers did. No one is born with a perfect Angel like nature but rather are made in the likeness of their fathers and I suppose for compatibility sake. Seems like common sense to me or do you or I prefer to parent a perfect Angel? We wouldn't know how to.

The commandment is:
EX 34:7 "Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting [not punishing] the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation." In brackets are my note.


The Good News is mercy and forgiveness which many here are failing to mention.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-17-2016, 08:59 PM
 
Location: Florida
62,763 posts, read 34,208,449 times
Reputation: 10417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4 View Post
Remember ' child ' in Scripture can refer to an adult child.
The old Hebrew Scriptures were talking about an offspring could Not be held responsible for a crime the parent committed.

What happened to the children ( minor and adult ) in the Flood of Noah's Day.
What happened to them when Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed.
What will happen to the children at the soon coming ' time of separation ' on Earth - Matthew 25:31-33,37
Minor children of a 'God-fearing parent ' will be saved - 1st Cor. 7:14
The flood? Everyone dies a physical death. After all we are talking about babies who die right after birth, or before it. Physical death is not the issue here.

Personally I have never been to a church which teaches babies go to hell, which suggests the idea is rare.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-17-2016, 09:06 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,148,409 times
Reputation: 1306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
The flood? Everyone dies a physical death. After all we are talking about babies who die right after birth, or before it. Physical death is not the issue here.

Personally I have never been to a church which teaches babies go to hell, which suggests the idea is rare.
Once again, it is because of "sin" that physical death also occurs.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

next you're going to accuse God the Holy Spirit of what ... being 'silly' ??

Spiritual death and physical death have no exemptions.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-17-2016, 09:09 PM
 
39,883 posts, read 26,630,414 times
Reputation: 6035
Quote:
Originally Posted by garya123 View Post
No, that is not true. The commandment only says that God visits the sinfulness unto the third and forth generation. It does not say punishment for the sins of the previous generations. In other words, we all inherit the sinful tendency of previous generations but each is accountable to when they themselves sin as I noted in a previous post which follows.
This is nothing more than an acknowledgment that the acquired traits and habits of the parents are inheritable by epigenetic processes through several generations. This certainly was not known back then since it has only recently been established. It does highlight the fact that natural causes were routinely attributed to God. Our primitive ancestors believed God was completely responsible for everything including their own personal decisions and choices.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-17-2016, 09:12 PM
 
20,301 posts, read 9,776,678 times
Reputation: 1667
Hell is a creation of men, it does not exist.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-17-2016, 09:22 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,148,409 times
Reputation: 1306
Quote:
Originally Posted by openmike View Post
Babies cannot repent and acknowledge sin. Yes we are born with a sinful nature recognized at an age
that appears to vary yet within generally 6-8 years . Jesus refers to infants as innocent which speaks
volumes. If you don't like innocent then go back to your perverted church dogma. Additionally, fetuses
( Jesus claims to know in the womb) has a place for them as well. So christian theologians wannabees need to chill! Seriously reexamine your messenger pastor philosophers.
The mark of perverted church dogma is when deranged people take seriously "sinful nature recognized at an age that appears to vary yet within generally 6-8 years" that then they go off and murder their children before they get to that mystical age to insure the kids don't go to hell.

Talk about christian theologians wannabees.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:18 PM.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top