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Old 04-28-2016, 09:33 PM
 
37,660 posts, read 25,365,683 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
Oh, I'd think not!
What about a six-month-old baby? Probably not...
Okay...how about at eight months? The little blighter might already be manipulating to get toys or food and she is beginning to understand "no" but will give the death glare and crawl straight for the older sibling's Halloween candy anyway. Cheeky thing! So maybe...?
Or no...because she can't speak yet and she can't reason so...age...two?
Oh wait, two-year-olds don't reason. Anyone who's ever had a two-year-old will attest to that. They DO manipulate, though, and it has now been shown that before age three a large percentage of children have lied. So would that be considered innocent? They're very, very young but my God those buggers can run the show with a scream or a well-timed bat of the lashes and they'll stare STRAIGHT at you and swear that it was the dog that took the last cookie.
But you know...as lies, manipulation and defiance go, those are still some pretty adorable examples. So okay. How about age seven? That's the age of reason. That's PERFECT! Except wait. How about five-year-olds who are incredibly precocious? How about seven-year-olds who are intellectually delayed?
Fine, then...thirteen? Teens pretty much all are always one step away from their parents leaving them on the church doorstep with a basket and a note anyway.
God would NEVER EVER condemn an innocent little baby! Except wait. We ALL have "sinful natures"...we are born with sinful natures. Aren't we? That's what I thought the old tome was...Am I wrong about that?
Nope. There is NO getting around the cruelty of God on this issue if you believe in the rest of what God is supposed to want, per a Biblical perspective. It is literally impossible to decide upon some arbitrary cutoff date so...nope, sorry...according to the belief system as a whole, unsaved newborn babies absolutely do roast screaming and begging in hell, along with aborted and miscarried babies.
The insanity and barbarity of the idea are beyond belief, JerZ.
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Old 04-28-2016, 09:42 PM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
51,708 posts, read 50,942,192 times
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The babies are innocent but the older siblings are evil...just ask the Talking Heads (heard this on the radio today and it's stuck in my ear!)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imWnuirIL8o
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Old 04-28-2016, 10:05 PM
 
25,634 posts, read 24,322,524 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The insanity and barbarity of the idea are beyond belief, JerZ.
I agree. That's why I just can't get behind this one. It's impossible.
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Old 04-29-2016, 12:03 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,011 posts, read 4,333,773 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garya123 View Post
The child did not die because of inheriting the sin of David but to punish David. The child went to Heaven as alluded to in the story.


The Good News is that "visit" means that the inherited sin does not have to make itself a permanent home but rather through the Gospel sin can be cast out of your home/soul.
Exactly my point, although David believes that he will only see the child in the after-life, there is no "original, inherited, visited" sin here. The baby is punished a bit then possibly rewarded (or not) on account of punishing David. So then if David is right that he is going to inherit some righteous after-life to see his dead baby in... the idea remains, why not save all babies in a similar manner before they grow up to sin? omnipresent miscarriages straight into blissful "and obedient" immortality.

However, there are other Jewish stories that show that prophets or leaders say that lay-Jews were suffering "because your ancestors sinned"... they were quoted before, I believe.
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Old 04-29-2016, 12:07 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,011 posts, read 4,333,773 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiluvr1228 View Post
Good Grief - I don't know about your God but my God would never condemn a newborn baby to hell so NO.
Scientific studies have shown that "my God" always agrees with the person because the person imagines that they do. If you change a group of people's minds on a subject, their "personal God" also seems to change his mind.
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Old 04-29-2016, 12:54 AM
 
Location: Redding, Ca
1,240 posts, read 1,025,575 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
So essentially, evangelical fundies say WE ARE ALL BORN IN SIN--WE ALL SUFFER ETERNAL TORMENT (UNLESS we have JESUS) BUT infants and children under some arbitrary age are exempt form eternal torment..

Makes all kinds of sense to me. I am ready to convert to fundieism.
Any thing born in the flesh is condemned to die. (Technical terms....born in sin = Condemned to die.)

A baby is born only to die? An Oxymoron?

No! Before life can exist as a soul in the here after, it must first be born of the flesh.

A baby born and dies prematurely, will inherit life in the hereafter.

Just imagine, had mankind never existed, what purpose would there be for an after life?

Blessings, AJ
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Old 04-29-2016, 03:50 AM
 
Location: GOVERNMENT of TRAITORS & NAZIS
20,675 posts, read 22,856,826 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467 View Post
Any thing born in the flesh is condemned to die. (Technical terms....born in sin = Condemned to die.)

A baby is born only to die? An Oxymoron?

No! Before life can exist as a soul in the here after, it must first be born of the flesh.

A baby born and dies prematurely, will inherit life in the hereafter.

Just imagine, had mankind never existed, what purpose would there be for an after life?

Blessings, AJ
So the question remains, at what age (according to evangelicals) does a child become accountable and have the opportunity to experience eternal torment brought on due to their choices?
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Old 04-29-2016, 12:02 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
7,633 posts, read 3,910,370 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The insanity and barbarity of the idea are beyond belief, JerZ.
Yeah it is. I think it's notions like that which led to infant baptism becoming a thing in the first place. "Baptize em quick! They might die and burn in hell forever!" Early Christianity got lost somewhere and some very strange notions resulted. God must have seemed like a very cruel and sadistic being to them -- which tells me that they clearly didn't actually know God.
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Old 04-29-2016, 12:22 PM
 
25,634 posts, read 24,322,524 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467 View Post
Any thing born in the flesh is condemned to die. (Technical terms....born in sin = Condemned to die.)

A baby is born only to die? An Oxymoron?

No! Before life can exist as a soul in the here after, it must first be born of the flesh.

A baby born and dies prematurely, will inherit life in the hereafter.

Just imagine, had mankind never existed, what purpose would there be for an after life?

Blessings, AJ
If anything of the flesh is condemned to die because it is sinful/has sinned/is doomed to sin, then why do animals die?
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Old 04-29-2016, 12:28 PM
 
25,634 posts, read 24,322,524 times
Reputation: 24095
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
Yeah it is. I think it's notions like that which led to infant baptism becoming a thing in the first place. "Baptize em quick! They might die and burn in hell forever!" Early Christianity got lost somewhere and some very strange notions resulted. God must have seemed like a very cruel and sadistic being to them -- which tells me that they clearly didn't actually know God.
The problem is in the backtracking, apologetics and filling in the gaps. A lot of these fear-tactic alternating with "rewards"/dangled carrot (hell...heaven) dictates were created without, apparently, the creators really thinking things through, or perhaps the more learned and literary thought the masses were stupid enough never to question, because holes always present themselves in Biblical literature and then the questions come.

And when they do, it's all the backpedaling. "Okay, write a fourth book, call it John and state that Jesus isn't just a blessed son of God, he's actually God!" "God wasn't SORRY he flooded the earth, the rainbow was a promise but not an apology." "Well, yes, God can be angry, but it's not imperfection the way we call it imperfection in humans because in God's case it's RIGHTEOUS anger." "Sure, God foresaw all but we still have choice...but...well, wait...oh, sorry, son, all out of time! Catch me next week. When I'll be er...off on retreat." "Knock and it shall be opened, ask and ye shall receive doesn't mean...well, that. It means ask for communion with God. They just left that part out...it's not that prayer doesn't actually work or that Jesus was wrong." "Oh, the old covenant passed away and that's why we can eat pork! Meanwhile, not one jot of the old law is to be washed away...that's why you shouldn't be gay!" And on and on...

Same thing with baptizing infants. Bible lore totally shot itself in the foot with the whole redemption only through accepting Jesus Christ thing, in concert with the we're all born in sin due to Adam and Eve thing. So baptism of infants rather than electively as one's informed choice stepped in.

And if there was a miscarriage? Stillbirth? Oh, you know what? Let's invent purgatory, and anyone can get out of it eventually...the family just needs to pray a lot.

The Bible CONSTANTLY paints itself into a corner and then that's where the fingers start plugging massive holes in the **** but the dam always pretty much bursts anyway.

It's fables, people. It's allegory. That's useful and fine and great but people take it to a literal extent and then try to force it on others...that's where the problems really begin.
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