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Old 04-29-2016, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
7,462 posts, read 3,864,836 times
Reputation: 2635

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
The problem is in the backtracking, apologetics and filling in the gaps. A lot of these fear-tactic alternating with "rewards"/dangled carrot (hell...heaven) dictates were created without, apparently, the creators really thinking things through, or perhaps the more learned and literary thought the masses were stupid enough never to question, because holes always present themselves in Biblical literature and then the questions come.

And when they do, it's all the backpedaling. "Okay, write a fourth book, call it John and state that Jesus isn't just a blessed son of God, he's actually God!" "God wasn't SORRY he flooded the earth, the rainbow was a promise but not an apology." "Well, yes, God can be angry, but it's not imperfection the way we call it imperfection in humans because in God's case it's RIGHTEOUS anger." "Sure, God foresaw all but we still have choice...but...well, wait...oh, sorry, son, all out of time! Catch me next week. When I'll be er...off on retreat." "Knock and it shall be opened, ask and ye shall receive doesn't mean...well, that. It means ask for communion with God. They just left that part out...it's not that prayer doesn't actually work or that Jesus was wrong." "Oh, the old covenant passed away and that's why we can eat pork! Meanwhile, not one jot of the old law is to be washed away...that's why you shouldn't be gay!" And on and on...

Same thing with baptizing infants. Bible lore totally shot itself in the foot with the whole redemption only through accepting Jesus Christ thing, in concert with the we're all born in sin due to Adam and Eve thing. So baptism of infants rather than electively as one's informed choice stepped in.

And if there was a miscarriage? Stillbirth? Oh, you know what? Let's invent purgatory, and anyone can get out of it eventually...the family just needs to pray a lot.

The Bible CONSTANTLY paints itself into a corner and then that's where the fingers start plugging massive holes in the **** but the dam always pretty much bursts anyway.

It's fables, people. It's allegory. That's useful and fine and great but people take it to a literal extent and then try to force it on others...that's where the problems really begin.
Quite clearly, the Bible is not infallible, nor is it sufficient, nor is it inerrant. The Bible offers a decent starting point. Properly understood, it points us in the right direction. But clearly the Bible was never meant to be the blueprint for building an entire religious belief-set from top to bottom. Therein lies the reason that I'm more Restorationist than anything. Clearly we need more information directly from God and not via texts that are 2000+ years old.
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Old 04-29-2016, 06:36 PM
 
37,519 posts, read 25,250,403 times
Reputation: 5857
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
The problem is in the backtracking, apologetics and filling in the gaps. A lot of these fear-tactic alternating with "rewards"/dangled carrot (hell...heaven) dictates were created without, apparently, the creators really thinking things through, or perhaps the more learned and literary thought the masses were stupid enough never to question, because holes always present themselves in Biblical literature and then the questions come.

And when they do, it's all the backpedaling. "Okay, write a fourth book, call it John and state that Jesus isn't just a blessed son of God, he's actually God!" "God wasn't SORRY he flooded the earth, the rainbow was a promise but not an apology." "Well, yes, God can be angry, but it's not imperfection the way we call it imperfection in humans because in God's case it's RIGHTEOUS anger." "Sure, God foresaw all but we still have choice...but...well, wait...oh, sorry, son, all out of time! Catch me next week. When I'll be er...off on retreat." "Knock and it shall be opened, ask and ye shall receive doesn't mean...well, that. It means ask for communion with God. They just left that part out...it's not that prayer doesn't actually work or that Jesus was wrong." "Oh, the old covenant passed away and that's why we can eat pork! Meanwhile, not one jot of the old law is to be washed away...that's why you shouldn't be gay!" And on and on...

Same thing with baptizing infants. Bible lore totally shot itself in the foot with the whole redemption only through accepting Jesus Christ thing, in concert with the we're all born in sin due to Adam and Eve thing. So baptism of infants rather than electively as one's informed choice stepped in.

And if there was a miscarriage? Stillbirth? Oh, you know what? Let's invent purgatory, and anyone can get out of it eventually...the family just needs to pray a lot.

The Bible CONSTANTLY paints itself into a corner and then that's where the fingers start plugging massive holes in the **** but the dam always pretty much bursts anyway.

It's fables, people. It's allegory. That's useful and fine and great but people take it to a literal extent and then try to force it on others...that's where the problems really begin.
I love your posts, JerZ. You highlight what is wrong with religious dogma - it is dogma! Too many of Jesus' self-appointed apostles today foolishly place the emphasis on retaining and promoting ancient beliefs. What is worse, they often focus on minuscule differences of opinion and escalate them into major concerns. How ironic it is that so many of these self-appointed religious leaders in the Christian fold so closely resemble the Scribes and Pharisees described by Jesus in Matthew 15:9, "in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrine the precepts of men."

It is a vain and foolish person who says "live as I say for the reasons I give you and no others." That only serves vanity and ego. Our God couldn't be less reasonable than the best human being! If certain beliefs are causing people to err because they can no longer accept them, revise them or cast them out, as Jesus suggested in Luke 14:34
. . . Salt is good; but if even the salt loses its strength, what shall it be seasoned with? It is fit neither for the land nor for the manure heap, but must be thrown out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Jesus set the precedent for revision of old beliefs with his own revision of the Old Testament which he justified in Luke 5:36,
. . . And no-one pours new wine into old wine skins; else the new wine will burst the skins, and will be spilt itself, and the skins ruined. But the new wine must be put into fresh skins and both are saved.

If we substitute generation for "wine" and beliefs for "skins," we can conclude that it is foolish to try to contain new generations within old beliefs because they are not as compatible with the newer perspectives and knowledge about the world of the newer generations. The old beliefs have served their purpose. They held the earlier generations' belief in God, mellowed our barbaric nature, and humankind has reaped the benefits. But age and new knowledge has weakened their power to persuade and made them totally inadequate to hold the new generations' belief in God.

Newer, stronger beliefs more consistent with our rapidly expanding knowledge of the world are needed. This means revision, NOT abandonment!! Unfortunately too many religious leaders reject knowledge as the “wisdom of man” and retain the ancient ignorance of our ancestors as a sign of Faith in God. Ironically revision had actually been one of the hallmarks of the splitting of Christianity into sects (Protestantism), (hence my optimism about Christianity) but even that spark of wisdom seems to have faded.
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Old 04-29-2016, 07:11 PM
 
2,735 posts, read 851,642 times
Reputation: 517
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
If anything of the flesh is condemned to die because it is sinful/has sinned/is doomed to sin, then why do animals die?
They are food for other animals.

A totally f'd up design. Something needs to be born for food for something else.


That's the best the creator could come up with? Really?
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Old 04-29-2016, 07:28 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
13,292 posts, read 4,249,941 times
Reputation: 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Last Amalekite 1Sam15 View Post
They are food for other animals.

A totally f'd up design. Something needs to be born for food for something else.


That's the best the creator could come up with? Really?

Is life so bad that you are mad at the creator for being you?
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Old 04-30-2016, 03:55 AM
 
2,735 posts, read 851,642 times
Reputation: 517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
Is life so bad that you are mad at the creator for being you?
Where'd you get bad life and mad from?

Projecting?
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Old 04-30-2016, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Redding, Ca
1,240 posts, read 1,022,847 times
Reputation: 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
So the question remains, at what age (according to evangelicals) does a child become accountable and have the opportunity to experience eternal torment brought on due to their choices?
Question. How long was Adam alive until both Eve and him eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

We don't know.

The point is that at a particular time they did consume knowledge in order to be able to make judgments?

Without knowledge a brain can make no judgement.

A baby, toddler and up until the age of acknowledgement, till the time knowledge is consumed to make moral judgments, I believe is the point when eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil makes its mark of independent thinking.

The question of "eternal torment" would be effective had Jesus not paid the price against that.

Up and until Jesus paid the price, all... I mean all souls born and died... would have had a chance to enter the gates of heaven.

"Eternal torment", has no grounds because Jesus has the keys to death and hell.
If so, there is no hell and there is no eternal death!

Salvation is from God and not of man.

Blessings, AJ
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Old 04-30-2016, 12:52 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,278 posts, read 20,889,434 times
Reputation: 9960
Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467 View Post
The question of "eternal torment" would be effective had Jesus not paid the price against that.

Up and until Jesus paid the price, all... I mean all souls born and died... would have had a chance to enter the gates of heaven.
Precisely! As I've said a million times before, Jesus atoned for Adam's sin. Therefore, we don't all start out life being guilty of it. It's a no-brainer.
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Old 04-30-2016, 01:16 PM
 
9,169 posts, read 2,784,110 times
Reputation: 658
As for the OP question, we are held accountable for what we know. What does a baby know of sin?

That doesn't mean sin is not there in the bloodline of Adam (the life is in the blood) in the child, it just means the child is unknowing of it, therefore not accountable.

Yeshua provided the means for atonement, but we still have to pick up our cross and follow Him through all the feast days and their meanings to our soul, with the Spirit leading and doing the works therein.

Atonement is something that occurred on Yom Kippur, when the accumulated sins of Israel including those of the High Priest that were incurred the previous year, were actually REMOVED from them. The rest of the year they were merely covered over by the blood. That this final work has NOT been appropriated but merely demonstrated is evident as sin abounds everywhere.

For 2000 years He's been busy cleansing the outside of the cup, just as He said He would, but the inside has yet to be cleansed. Peace
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Old 04-30-2016, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
13,292 posts, read 4,249,941 times
Reputation: 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1 View Post
As for the OP question, we are held accountable for what we know. What does a baby know of sin?

That doesn't mean sin is not there in the bloodline of Adam (the life is in the blood) in the child, it just means the child is unknowing of it, therefore not accountable.

Yeshua provided the means for atonement, but we still have to pick up our cross and follow Him through all the feast days and their meanings to our soul, with the Spirit leading and doing the works therein.

Atonement is something that occurred on Yom Kippur, when the accumulated sins of Israel including those of the High Priest that were incurred the previous year, were actually REMOVED from them. The rest of the year they were merely covered over by the blood. That this final work has NOT been appropriated but merely demonstrated is evident as sin abounds everywhere.

For 2000 years He's been busy cleansing the outside of the cup, just as He said He would, but the inside has yet to be cleansed. Peace
Amen, Every year we come boldly to the throne on Yom Kippur because every year we have obtained the seal in our forehead and right hand because we keep his feasts and his Sabbaths and the law is always on our lips, so we come boldly each year knowing that we are sealed, and each year a decision is made whether we will live another year or not. Thank God we have a high priest officiating when our name is spoken on Rosh Hashanah when the books are opened every year.
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Old 04-30-2016, 02:43 PM
 
25,415 posts, read 24,177,367 times
Reputation: 23843
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Precisely! As I've said a million times before, Jesus atoned for Adam's sin. Therefore, we don't all start out life being guilty of it. It's a no-brainer.
But if Jesus already atoned for our sins and that's a done deal before we're even born, why do we "need" to "accept" Jesus and confess he is lord, etc., etc. in order to be "saved"?

Is it a done deal or isn't it?
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