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Old 05-17-2016, 12:02 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,282 posts, read 20,911,116 times
Reputation: 9964

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Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467 View Post
Lets look at Gods work in creation via His eyes.

He wanted to create an entities, like Himself, after His likeness......frankly......gods with the lower case g.
I agree completely!

Quote:
Gen_1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Adam and Eve, as innocent babes, must navigate intelligently through a world set up for trial.

But how would they do that if they didn't know anything?
Well, I don't believe there were prepared to do so until they ate the forbidden fruit. It was then that they gained a knowledge of good and evil and took the first step to becoming "godlike."

Quote:
Does a baby know anything when first born?
Nothing at all.

So, God uses the illustration of a tree of knowledge and Adam and Eve partaking of it, as part of the natural order; such as like a new born babies growing up learning about the world around them.

When the time comes for them to exercise their own minds,their independent thinking is when separation

comes
or, in other words, become their own gods, akin to Adam and Eve being separated at becoming their own gods, from the garden of Eden. At that point, as like Adam and Eve, became lost.

It was by design it be that way. How else could gods exist as independent gods with a mind of their own?

God understood the consequences and therefore, made plans to save His creation.

Creation was not lost by any fault of humanity, but rather, by Gods creative process.[/quote]With a few minor caveats, we're on the same page.

Quote:
It was then God's responsibility to save His own creation.

How suppose He proposed to save it...... by mankind's righteousness? NO!

But with God's own righteousness, in the form of a human body, God sacrificed Him.

No way out for Him.
I disagree that it was God's "responsibility." That makes it sound as if He owed us something, and was accountable to us instead of the other way around. I do, however, believe that God wants us to be reconciled to Him. I believe it is His work and His glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. I don't believe He will do so by force, though. I believe we each have our agency and are given the privilege of choosing for ourselves whether we want to be reconciled to Him or not. In my opinion, He wants the choice to be ours, and He wants the growth to be ours. But, as I said before, I don't believe He will judge anyone until all have had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ. For some, this may take place in mortality, but for others it won't happen until the time between death and our resurrection. It seems to me that our main point of disagreement is that you seem to believe (please correct me if I'm wrong) that for millions, this knowledge and acceptance of Christ will be instantaneous and will happen at the moment of death, and I believe these individuals will have the opportunity to do so over a period of time prior to the final judgement.
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Old 05-17-2016, 09:24 AM
 
Location: Divided Tribes of America
12,920 posts, read 4,938,088 times
Reputation: 4997
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
You are the evidence that hell is real
"They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."
Your turning from the truth to myths:
  • The danger isn't real. It's completely imaginary.
  • Heaven and hell exist nowhere but in the human imagination.
That's strange logic. Very strange logic.

I don't believe that fairies are real. According to your logic, I am evidence that fairies are real.

Are the people who don't believe in the Easter Bunny the evidence for the Easter Bunny?
Are the people who don't believe in the Tooth Fairy the evidence for the Tooth Fairy?

By your way of thinking, absolutely any crazy idea is proven reality simply because a large number of people don't believe said crazy idea.

Last edited by Freak80; 05-17-2016 at 09:34 AM..
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Old 05-17-2016, 10:30 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,823,424 times
Reputation: 1302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
That's strange logic. Very strange logic.

I don't believe that fairies are real. According to your logic, I am evidence that fairies are real.

Are the people who don't believe in the Easter Bunny the evidence for the Easter Bunny?
Are the people who don't believe in the Tooth Fairy the evidence for the Tooth Fairy?

By your way of thinking, absolutely any crazy idea is proven reality simply because a large number of people don't believe said crazy idea.
That's strange logic. Very strange logic.
Ask your father, the LCMS pastor

Since the premise is Jesus is real, your myths are the crazy ideas.
So take your crazy myths to the appropriate forum or back to hell where it belongs.
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Old 05-17-2016, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
12,776 posts, read 10,778,998 times
Reputation: 14902
Only Christian babies.

But, wait...they wouldn't be Christian, yet...so, NO....
No babies sent to hell...
Now, the parents, I dunno.
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Old 05-17-2016, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Divided Tribes of America
12,920 posts, read 4,938,088 times
Reputation: 4997
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
That's strange logic. Very strange logic.
Ask your father, the LCMS pastor

Since the premise is Jesus is real, your myths are the crazy ideas.
So take your crazy myths to the appropriate forum or back to hell where it belongs.
I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Please explain in more detail.
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Old 05-19-2016, 06:11 PM
 
Location: Michigan
33 posts, read 13,554 times
Reputation: 13
Exclamation No! Babies do not go to hell!

Quote:
Originally Posted by whos'who View Post
Are new born babies who are not saved and who have not excepted Jesus as their lord and savior, comdemned to hell?
WOW! I find it really unbelievable the lack of Biblical knowledge when it comes to quotations of scripture. I am also surprised that people will say "the Bible says" and they do not give a reference. You can say the Bible says this or that, but without proof text you make the Bible say anything you wish. Moreover a proof text taken out of context is only a pretext.

WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! Admittedly this is from a "fundie" viewpoint.

The problem of babies burning is hell as I see it depends on your interpretation of the verses in Romans 5:12, 18 and 19
Quote:
(Rom 5:12 [NASB]) Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned–
(Rom 5:18,19 [NASB]) So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
On the surface these verses seem to say that 'all without exception' have sinned. The problem becomes if 'all without exception' have sinned then you must accept that 'all without exception' will be justified (absolute universalism). This flies in the face of Paul's clear teaching that salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ:

Quote:
(Rom 1:16 [NASB]) For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
(Rom 3:22 [NASB]) even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
(Rom 5:1 [NASB]) Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
(Rom 9:32 [NASB]) Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
(Rom 10:9 [NASB]) that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
(Rom 10:13 [NASB]) for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”
Furthermore, Paul makes it clear that he understands only a remnant will be saved:

Quote:
(Rom 9:27 [NASB]) Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;
(Rom 11:5 [NASB]) In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.
He likewise speaks of a hardening which has come upon part of Israel:

Quote:
(Rom 11:7 [NASB]) What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
(Rom 11:25 [NASB]) For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery–so that you will not be wise in your own estimation–that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
which in turn means some of Israel does not come to faith. It seems inescapable that Paul sees two distinct groups of people: those who exercise faith in Jesus and those who do not. These groups do not enjoy the same final fate. Those who have faith will live, those who do not, will not. Simply stated, if universalism is to be dismissed, how are we to account for what vv. 18–19 seems to teach?

The theologian Anders Nygren attempts to show that Paul’s real intention is to contrast the ages or epochs of Adam and Christ. As Adam was the initiator of the age of sin and death, so Christ is the initiator of the age of righteousness and life. However this does not entirely satisfy Paul's language of vv. 18–19.

Some say that verse 17 modifies verse 18, They say that Paul makes it clear that it is those who “receive the free gift” who also “live.” Therefore, v. 18b must be read in light of v. 17. As a result, “all men” must mean “all those who receive the free gift. The theologian Charles Cranfield maintains Paul’s point was that “what Christ has done he really has done for all men, that a status of righteousness, the issue of which is life, is truly offered to all . . . ”

However, this seems to be reading something into the text which is not actually there (namely, the “truly offered to all”). If this was what Paul meant, why did he write verse 18 the way he did? If his point was to say “Just as Adam’s sin led to condemnation and death for all men (without exception), so also Christ’s righteousness leads to pardon and life for all who believe,” why did he not say so?

If Paul is expressing a view of inherited sin in Rom 5:12–21 this seems to lead to a significant problem; namely, absolute universalism. How do we avoid universalism in light of the fact that Paul clearly says Adam’s sin affects “all men” and likewise Christ’s righteousness affects “all men”?

I propose an answer that is in keeping with one of Paul’s primary points of emphasis throughout Romans, which is explicitly expressed in:

Quote:
(Rom 3:21-24 [NASB]) But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
(Rom 10:11-13 [NASB]) For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; )
for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”
So we should understand “all men” in verses 18 and 19 of chapter 5 in the sense of all men without ethnic distinction, Jews and Gentiles alike, not all men without exception. Thus when Paul says the sin of Adam brings condemnation and death to “all men,” he means Jews and Gentiles alike are affected by sin and death. And when he says that the righteousness of Christ leads to pardon and life for “all men” he means that salvation in Christ is available to all men without distinction. Jews and Gentiles alike may accept the free gift; it is not limited to any one group.

To the Jew salvation came from the Lord and is a favor bestowed upon the nation as a whole. The only way for Gentiles to received salvation was to convert to Judaism. However Paul teaches that:

Quote:
(Rom 3:29 [NASB]) Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
(Gal 3:28 [NASB]) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Thus the idea of inherited sin is not what Paul really has in view in chapter 5. Paul is talking about the universal nature of sin in that it affects all people. It is not his concern to speculate about the transmission or imputation of Adam’s sin to all men without exception. Neither is it his intention to suggest that all men without exception will receive the benefit ̃ts of Christ’s righteousness. What Paul is talking about are people groups, with “all men” being inclusive of all such people groups.

So I've said all that to say this. I do not believe that God sends babies to hell.
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Old 05-19-2016, 07:17 PM
 
37,573 posts, read 25,275,797 times
Reputation: 5860
Quote:
Originally Posted by diakonos View Post
WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! Admittedly this is from a "fundie" viewpoint.
<Snip>
So I've said all that to say this. I do not believe that God sends babies to hell.
Sadly, what we do NOT need in the forum is more fundie viewpoints. Their views corrupt the Gospel of Christ beyond recognition and blaspheme God. God IS agape love and anything that is NOT consistent with or compatible with the Spirit of agape love is NOT from God or Jesus.
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Old 05-19-2016, 10:15 PM
 
4,592 posts, read 2,274,712 times
Reputation: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn View Post
Only Christian babies.
But, wait...they wouldn't be Christian, yet...so, NO....
No babies sent to hell...
Now, the parents, I dunno.
To which hell are you referring ?
* There is the religious-myth hell of burning forever which is taught as being Scripture but is Not biblical hell.
* The Bible's hell is simply mankind's temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead.
Jesus taught sleep in death - John 11:11-14
Jesus was well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures which also teach sleep in death.
Please notice: Psalms 6:5; 13:3; 115:17; 146:4; Daniel 12:2,13; Ecclesiastes 9:5

Since the Bible's hell is the grave ( temporary sleeping place for the dead ) then all the dead ' go to hell '
Can you think of anyone righteous who went to biblical hell ?______
The day Jesus' died righteous Jesus went to biblical hell - Acts 2:27; Psalm 16:10

Biblical hell comes to a final end according to Revelation 20:13-14
After everyone in the Bible's hell is ' delivered up ' (KJV) meaning resurrected out of hell, then emptied-out hell is cast vacant into a symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell.
Enemy death will be No more - 1st Cor. 15:26; Isaiah 25:8
So, during Christ's 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth both death and hell (grave) will be No more.
Mankind will see the return of the Genesis ' tree of life ' on Earth for the healing of Earth's nations - Rev. 22:2
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Old 05-20-2016, 07:24 AM
 
Location: Divided Tribes of America
12,920 posts, read 4,938,088 times
Reputation: 4997
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Sadly, what we do NOT need in the forum is more fundie viewpoints. Their views corrupt the Gospel of Christ beyond recognition and blaspheme God. God IS agape love and anything that is NOT consistent with or compatible with the Spirit of agape love is NOT from God or Jesus.
You'd better throw out half of the New Testament then. And most of the Old Testament.
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Old 05-21-2016, 08:19 PM
 
Location: Redding, Ca
1,240 posts, read 1,023,402 times
Reputation: 119
Quote:
I disagree that it was God's "responsibility." That makes it sound as if He owed us something, and was accountable to us instead of the other way around. I do, however, believe that God wants us to be reconciled to Him. I believe it is His work and His glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. I don't believe He will do so by force, though. I believe we each have our agency and are given the privilege of choosing for ourselves whether we want to be reconciled to Him or not. In my opinion, He wants the choice to be ours, and He wants the growth to be ours. But, as I said before, I don't believe He will judge anyone until all have had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ. For some, this may take place in mortality, but for others it won't happen until the time between death and our resurrection. It seems to me that our main point of disagreement is that you seem to believe (please correct me if I'm wrong) that for millions, this knowledge and acceptance of Christ will be instantaneous and will happen at the moment of death, and I believe these individuals will have the opportunity to do so over a period of time prior to the final judgement.
>>>Katzpur
Lets reason for a second concerning God's purpose in creating individual entities...gods.

How would these gods be tested? Or, did they need be tested?

If....gods, then testing would be a normal way of determining their intellectual abilities, right?

Giving them two extreme reference points to choose from. Good and evil?

The serpent......to blame?

Their "fall" was unavoidable. It was by design.

Which only means that God Himself would provide the only means by which they could be saved from their apparent fall.

Hence......a free gift to them.

Blessings, AJ
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